One comment on Genesis 6:1-4--not demons or angels.

[Bruce_Leiter]

Fellow believers, one very good principle of biblical interpretation is to study the CONTEXT of any passage. When we consider Genesis 6:1-4

(Gen 6:1  When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 
Gen 6:2  the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 
Gen 6:3  Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” 
Gen 6:4  The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown [English Standard Version]),

the previous chapters give us the clues we need to know who the "sons of God" and the "daughters of man" seem to be.

Moses traces two genealogical lines from Adam, one through Seth, including Enoch, and the other through Cain, including Lamech. I know we often skip genealogies; but, in this case, they are important for our interpretation of Genesis 6:1-4.

(You realize, of course, that the chapter divisions were never in the original manuscripts.)

Anyway, this understanding makes what I think is the best interpretation of Genesis 6:1-4 that the sons of God are the believing line from Seth, and the daughters of men are the unbelieving line from Cain. The mixture of unbelievers and believers resulted in the earth's corruption that brought on the Great Flood. God gave Noah 120 years to build the Ark and preach the Good News about how the people could escape destruction. Sadly, people didn't listen.

[other one]

pffft

 

[BornAgain490]

22 hours ago, Bruce_Leiter said:

Fellow believers, one very good principle of biblical interpretation is to study the CONTEXT of any passage. When we consider Genesis 6:1-4

(Gen 6:1  When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 
Gen 6:2  the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 
Gen 6:3  Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” 
Gen 6:4  The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown [English Standard Version]),

the previous chapters give us the clues we need to know who the "sons of God" and the "daughters of man" seem to be.

Moses traces two genealogical lines from Adam, one through Seth, including Enoch, and the other through Cain, including Lamech. I know we often skip genealogies; but, in this case, they are important for our interpretation of Genesis 6:1-4.

(You realize, of course, that the chapter divisions were never in the original manuscripts.)

Anyway, this understanding makes what I think is the best interpretation of Genesis 6:1-4 that the sons of God are the believing line from Seth, and the daughters of men are the unbelieving line from Cain. The mixture of unbelievers and believers resulted in the earth's corruption that brought on the Great Flood. God gave Noah 120 years to build the Ark and preach the Good News about how the people could escape destruction. Sadly, people didn't listen.

I agree.  If angels could reproduce, why not reproduce among themselves. 

[other one]

1 hour ago, BornAgain490 said:

I agree.  If angels could reproduce, why not reproduce among themselves. 

Probably because they are all male.

[Jayne]

23 hours ago, Bruce_Leiter said:

Fellow believers, one very good principle of biblical interpretation is to study the CONTEXT of any passage. When we consider Genesis 6:1-4

(Gen 6:1  When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 
Gen 6:2  the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 
Gen 6:3  Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” 
Gen 6:4  The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown [English Standard Version]),

the previous chapters give us the clues we need to know who the "sons of God" and the "daughters of man" seem to be.

Moses traces two genealogical lines from Adam, one through Seth, including Enoch, and the other through Cain, including Lamech. I know we often skip genealogies; but, in this case, they are important for our interpretation of Genesis 6:1-4.

(You realize, of course, that the chapter divisions were never in the original manuscripts.)

Anyway, this understanding makes what I think is the best interpretation of Genesis 6:1-4 that the sons of God are the believing line from Seth, and the daughters of men are the unbelieving line from Cain. The mixture of unbelievers and believers resulted in the earth's corruption that brought on the Great Flood. God gave Noah 120 years to build the Ark and preach the Good News about how the people could escape destruction. Sadly, people didn't listen.

Hi, Bruce.  I used to believe what you do.  And I vehemently taught it that way.  "The Sons of God" = righteous men.  "The daughters of men" = sinful women.

The thought of fallen angels having sex with earthly women was crazy to me. 

And then I, myself, started reading the context.  Context of Genesis 3, Genesis 6, Genesis 8, Matthew 22, 2 Peter 2, and Jude.

[1]  2 Peter 2 and Jude speak of some fallen angels that God put into hell for their sins and is keeping them there until the final judgment.  What was their sin? It doesn't specifically say, BUT Jude says "...in a similar manner, the people of Sodom and Gomorrah and surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexually immorality and perversion..."

"In a similar manner".  So whatever that sin of some fallen angels was - it was sexual.

[2] How does that jive with Matthew 22 where Jesus says that angels don't marry?  Jesus was answering a question of the Sadducees who didn't believe in the afterlife and were wanting to trick him about a woman who had multiple husbands...."whose wife would she be in heaven?" He told them that there wasn't going to be marriage in heaven just as angels weren't married in heaven.  Jesus didn't say that angels COULDN'T get married.  He said the faithful ones who lived in heaven did not marry.

[3] Genesis 6 and Genesis 8 say that both before AND after the Great Flood that mankind was evil.  So did God make a plan that failed?  What was the point of the Great Flood if it didn't change mankind?  I believe that answer is in Genesis 3.

[4]  Genesis 3 shows God telling the devil that he will have his undoing and final judgment.  And God said it would come  from the "seed of the woman" and that "seed" would crush the devil's head.  I believe the point of the Great Flood was to rid the world of the demonic damage done to the "seed of the woman".  The devil doesn't know everything.  He is a created being just like a turnip.  But he understood somehow that women would be involved in producing some child - somewhere - some time - that would be his undoing.  

I now believe, and this is NOT a hill that I would die on, that these fallen angels either [1] demonically possessed earthly men or [2] demonically posed as earthly men, took these women, and produced demonic offspring.  Yes, mankind was very sinful and God repented of creating mankind, but I believe his ultimate reason for the Great Flood was to rid the earth of the demonic offspring and he washed the whole earth clean.

 

 

[BornAgain490]

4 minutes ago, other one said:

Probably because they are all male.

Where in the Bible does it say all angels are male?

[Jayne]

3 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

Where in the Bible does it say all angels are male?

Angels, when appearing to people, are male with male names and many times in battle-ready form.

I personally believe angels are genderless in the way we think, but that fallen angels - or demons - can change forms.

[BornAgain490]

1 minute ago, Jayne said:

Hi, Bruce.  I used to believe what you do.  And I vehemently taught it that way.  "The Sons of God" = righteous men.  "The daughters of men" = sinful women.

The thought of fallen angels having sex with earthly women was crazy to me. 

And then I, myself, started reading the context.  Context of Genesis 3, Genesis 6, Genesis 8, Matthew 22, 2 Peter 2, and Jude.

[1]  2 Peter 2 and Jude speak of some fallen angels that God put into hell for their sins and is keeping them there until the final judgment.  What was their sin? It doesn't specifically say, BUT Jude says "...in a similar manner, the people of Sodom and Gomorrah and surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexually immorality and perversion..."

"In a similar manner".  So whatever that sin of some fallen angels was - it was sexual.

[2] How does that jive with Matthew 22 where Jesus says that angels don't marry?  Jesus was answering a question of the Sadducees who didn't believe in the afterlife and were wanting to trick him about a woman who had multiple husbands...."whose wife would she be in heaven?" He told them that there wasn't going to be marriage in heaven just as angels weren't married in heaven.  Jesus didn't say that angels COULDN'T get married.  He said the faithful ones who lived in heaven did not marry.

[3] Genesis 6 and Genesis 8 say that both before AND after the Great Flood that mankind was evil.  So did God make a plan that failed?  What was the point of the Great Flood if it didn't change mankind?  I believe that answer is in Genesis 3.

[4]  Genesis 3 shows God telling the devil that he will have his undoing and final judgment.  And God said it would come  from the "seed of the woman" and that "seed" would crush the devil's head.  I believe the point of the Great Flood was to rid the world of the demonic damage done to the "seed of the woman".  The devil doesn't know everything.  He is a created being just like a turnip.  But he understood somehow that women would be involved in producing some child - somewhere - some time - that would be his undoing.  

I now believe, and this is NOT a hill that I would die on, that these fallen angels either [1] demonically possessed earthly men or [2] demonically posed as earthly men, took these women, and produced demonic offspring.  Yes, mankind was very sinful and God repented of creating mankind, but I believe his ultimate reason for the Great Flood was to rid the earth of the demonic offspring and he washed the whole earth clean.

 

 

But Genesis 6 specifically says: (1) men multiplied on the face of the earth. No mention of angels. 

(2) God's spirit will not always strive with man. No mention of angels. 

(3) the offspring from the sons of God and daughters of men became mighty men.  No mention of angels. 

(4) God saw the wickedness of man was great in the earth. No mention of angels. 

(5) It repented the Lord that He had made man on the earth. No mention of angels. 

(6) the Lord said he would destroy man and beast. No mention of angels. 

The terms angel, angels, and angel's is used over 100 times in the OT, and more than 30 are by Moses.  It makes sense thar Moses would have used angel/angels in Genesis 6 if he was writing about angels, fallen or otherwise. 

[BornAgain490]

11 minutes ago, Jayne said:

Angels, when appearing to people, are male with male names and many times in battle-ready form.

I personally believe angels are genderless in the way we think, but that fallen angels - or demons - can change forms.

I know we can all make assumptions and beliefs about what we think the Bible means.  But if there is no sound explicit language to support them, then that's all they are: personal assumptions and beliefs. 

[Jayne]

6 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

But Genesis 6 specifically says: (1) men multiplied on the face of the earth. No mention of angels. 

(2) God's spirit will not always strive with man. No mention of angels. 

(3) the offspring from the sons of God and daughters of men became mighty men.  No mention of angels. 

(4) God saw the wickedness of man was great in the earth. No mention of angels. 

(5) It repented the Lord that He had made man on the earth. No mention of angels. 

(6) the Lord said he would destroy man and beast. No mention of angels. 

The terms angel, angels, and angel's is used over 100 times in the OT, and more than 30 are by Moses.  It makes sense thar Moses would have used angel/angels in Genesis 6 if he was writing about angels, fallen or otherwise. 

Well, you did go there.

Genesis 6 says "sons of God".  Read the book of Job where this means angels, including the devil.