Is God Still Speaking Thru Prophets Today to Steer the Nations?

[tatwo]

On 9/20/2024 at 12:04 PM, BornAgain490 said:

We would need to identify them and do as God commanded: test their words to see whether they are speaking for and from God. 

Sure…to identify them we can look at Ephesians chapter 4 as I have suggested prior…this will require some work...however I have condensed it for this post. Remember…this is concerning the “gifts and graces” bestowed upon men at the time of the Lord Yahshua’s ascension.

These are listed as…“apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers” operating within the Kingdom of God…the Body of Christ on the earth and they were first empowered by the Holy Spirit on that following Pentecost. Let’s commence to identifying “them” based upon the scriptural description and subsequent identifiable manifestation of these graces and gifts.

The first part of their “job description” if you will...verse 12...

(12) “Is for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;”

What they do?…”the equipping of the saints for the work of service”…their purpose in doing it?… “the building up of the body of Christ”

This would indicate that “today’s prophets” are called forth and raised up by the Holy Spirit to lead and guide the “saints” who are “created in Christ Yahshua for good works…which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them” Ephesians 2.

So think “big brother or father type figure” here…in and to the Kingdom of God…the body of Christ.

(13)  “until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.”

Here we are seeing a “timeframe” that these 5 graces of the Lord are in operation…”until [denoting a finishing point or completion] we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God” Here then is listed the “targeted completion date”…unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God…”attained” among “ALL”…in the Kingdom of our God.

One look at these forums and the “church” tells us that the “unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God” has not been achieved or completed…however it will happen. Until then…the 5 graces and gifts that the Lord Himself gave to us…will remain and in operation wherever the Kingdom of God is present…until this objective is achieved.

When is it then…that it will be achieved? Well…verse 13 also gives us that answer…it is when the Body is considered by the Lord Yahshua – the Head and standard Himself – to be a “mature man – a Spirit Man” again referencing the spiritual growth and maturity of the spiritual Body of Christ itself.

The level of maturity that will be reached is…“to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.” The “Body of Christ…under its Head” is to become one in Spirit and at a maturity level of that belonging to the “fullness” of Lord Yahshua Himself. That’s what Paul wrote…fully able to support the glory of God on the earth.

Sure I understand the controversy that causes…we are however working directly from the scripture…verse by verse here. We are addressing the identification and litmus test of “today’s prophets.”

They are existent in the Body of Christ as “spiritual fathers…leaders” engaged in the raising up of the “sons of God” to the full measure of the stature that belongs to the fullness of Christ.

 (14)  “As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming”

This “we are no longer to be children” is pointing to a process of “spiritual maturation” which takes us from “spiritual infant…new birth…born again”…to a “spiritually mature adult” so that we are not deceived “by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming” as “spiritual children” are.

Back in verse 12 we saw that these… “apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher”…are called and gifted by the Holy Spirit…who is assembling the Body of Christ…to do just that… the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ.

This is the process for loving, raising, training and equipping, the saints as they grow up and mature spiritually into Christ…fulfilling their calls in the Kingdom of God…which is…to do the “good works that God prepared beforehand”…that they should walk in.

(15)  “but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ”

“Today’s prophets” are a vital part of the Lord’s plan to teach the saints to “speak the Truth in love”…so that…the saints can “grow up into all aspects”…this would be their unique parts, callings, roles, anointing's, etc…into Christ. The Body of Christ is to become unified in faith and the knowledge of Christ to the level of spiritual maturity that was present in the “Head” of the Body…none other than the Lord Yahshua Christ.

(16) “from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.”

The entire “Body of Christ” is being “fitted and held together” or assembled [Hebrews 10:25] by the Holy Spirit…according to “the proper working of each individual part – call, role, gifting, grace.” The Holy Spirit knows exactly where each part of Christ belongs and what they do…as the part that they have been desired by the Father…before creation. Ephesians 1:4

These 5 graces including prophets are all employed by the Holy Spirit to guide these thing to fulfillment.

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

@BornAgain490

Conclusion…

Though it is the same God who reveals the same “Theopneustos Word” to the prophets of the two covenants…there is a difference in the prophets. One is natural on the earth in the once visible kingdom of Israel…the other is spiritual in the heavens in the invisible eternal Kingdom of God.

Today’s prophets of God are gifted, graced and Holy Spirit empowered to assist in the raising of the “children of God up into Christ as the “mature Spirit sons of God” as was always the plan.

So if one would like to “test and authenticate” the “words and works of today’s prophets” that should be easy…if…you’re in the invisible spiritual Body of Christ directly under your Head.

They are the ones who have “sacrificed their lives” on the altar of worship to the Lord Yahshua Christ…to love you and teach you…affirm and admonish you in the ways of maturing…which is their call...“to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.”

I am fully aware of the controversy that surrounds what I have presented here…few there be today who have actually heard it…of those…few are likely to lay hold of it. For those who can discern Spirit and Truth my hope is that you might find some in this?

Tatwo…

[BornAgain490]

6 minutes ago, tatwo said:

That to which I refer is this...emphasis mine.

“and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. "You are witnesses of these things. "And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.” (Luke 24:46-49 NASB)

The Lord appearing to His disciples after His resurrection...just prior to His ascension this had happened to no one prior to Pentecost...save the Lord Yahshua Himself. Here He is telling them that indwelling of the Holy Spirit will clothe them with power...from on high...that power is the eternal life of the Lord Himself.

Tatwo...:) 

Read the text of Luke carefully, because it is a fulfillment of OT prophecy of proclaiming Messiah to the nations, and not simply to Israel. This was God's plan all along, namely: Israel was tasked with a duty to be a priestly nation, a light drawing the other nations to God. Israel failed in their task, so God sent the Messiah, just as God had planned. Jesus Messiah was the "True Light" (John 8). The apostles and disciples of Christ received a special annointing of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, as we clearly see in Acts 2.  Do you know of anyone since that Acts 2 anointing  who's had, or witnessed for themselves or someone else,  flaming tongues lighting on the heads of believers? 

[BornAgain490]

12 minutes ago, tatwo said:

Sure…to identify them we can look at Ephesians chapter 4 as I have suggested prior…this will require some work...however I have condensed it for this post. Remember…this is concerning the “gifts and graces” bestowed upon men at the time of the Lord Yahshua’s ascension.

These are listed as…“apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers” operating within the Kingdom of God…the Body of Christ on the earth and they were first empowered by the Holy Spirit on that following Pentecost. Let’s commence to identifying “them” based upon the scriptural description and subsequent identifiable manifestation of these graces and gifts.

The first part of their “job description” if you will...verse 12...

(12) “Is for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;”

What they do?…”the equipping of the saints for the work of service”…their purpose in doing it?… “the building up of the body of Christ”

This would indicate that “today’s prophets” are called forth and raised up by the Holy Spirit to lead and guide the “saints” who are “created in Christ Yahshua for good works…which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them” Ephesians 2.

So think “big brother or father type figure” here…in and to the Kingdom of God…the body of Christ.

(13)  “until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.”

Here we are seeing a “timeframe” that these 5 graces of the Lord are in operation…”until [denoting a finishing point or completion] we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God” Here then is listed the “targeted completion date”…unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God…”attained” among “ALL”…in the Kingdom of our God.

One look at these forums and the “church” tells us that the “unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God” has not been achieved or completed…however it will happen. Until then…the 5 graces and gifts that the Lord Himself gave to us…will remain and in operation wherever the Kingdom of God is present…until this objective is achieved.

When is it then…that it will be achieved? Well…verse 13 also gives us that answer…it is when the Body is considered by the Lord Yahshua – the Head and standard Himself – to be a “mature man – a Spirit Man” again referencing the spiritual growth and maturity of the spiritual Body of Christ itself.

The level of maturity that will be reached is…“to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.” The “Body of Christ…under its Head” is to become one in Spirit and at a maturity level of that belonging to the “fullness” of Lord Yahshua Himself. That’s what Paul wrote…fully able to support the glory of God on the earth.

Sure I understand the controversy that causes…we are however working directly from the scripture…verse by verse here. We are addressing the identification and litmus test of “today’s prophets.”

They are existent in the Body of Christ as “spiritual fathers…leaders” engaged in the raising up of the “sons of God” to the full measure of the stature that belongs to the fullness of Christ.

 (14)  “As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming”

This “we are no longer to be children” is pointing to a process of “spiritual maturation” which takes us from “spiritual infant…new birth…born again”…to a “spiritually mature adult” so that we are not deceived “by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming” as “spiritual children” are.

Back in verse 12 we saw that these… “apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher”…are called and gifted by the Holy Spirit…who is assembling the Body of Christ…to do just that… the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ.

This is the process for loving, raising, training and equipping, the saints as they grow up and mature spiritually into Christ…fulfilling their calls in the Kingdom of God…which is…to do the “good works that God prepared beforehand”…that they should walk in.

(15)  “but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ”

“Today’s prophets” are a vital part of the Lord’s plan to teach the saints to “speak the Truth in love”…so that…the saints can “grow up into all aspects”…this would be their unique parts, callings, roles, anointing's, etc…into Christ. The Body of Christ is to become unified in faith and the knowledge of Christ to the level of spiritual maturity that was present in the “Head” of the Body…none other than the Lord Yahshua Christ.

(16) “from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.”

The entire “Body of Christ” is being “fitted and held together” or assembled [Hebrews 10:25] by the Holy Spirit…according to “the proper working of each individual part – call, role, gifting, grace.” The Holy Spirit knows exactly where each part of Christ belongs and what they do…as the part that they have been desired by the Father…before creation. Ephesians 1:4

These 5 graces including prophets are all employed by the Holy Spirit to guide these thing to fulfillment.

Tatwo...:)

Okay. What theology are these modern day prophets teaching to equip the saints: is it dispensationalism, or covenantism, or hyper-dispensationalism, or Roman Catholicism, or Mormonism, or is it some other ism?  

What are modern day prophets teaching to equip the saints on matters of soteriology: is it the Bible as through the lens of John Calvin's teachings, the Bible as through the lens of Jacob Arminius's teachings, the Bible as through the lens of Luther's teachings, or the Bible through some others' lens?

These two questions for starters. 

[tatwo]

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

True, the OT prophets were speaking for God to the people of Israel. But you must remember why God chose Israel in the first place. 

God chose Israel to be a priestly nation, separate and distinct from all other nations, who were tasked by God to be a light to the nations tobdraw the nations to the true light, which was God. When Israel continued to faile that task,  and continued in their disobedience,  God used the prophets to warn Israel that God would scatter them if they continued in their idolatry and disobedience, which is what happened. 

God was giving His words to the prophets to tell Israel to do what God had commanded them to do, and to believe that God was going to send His Annointed One to establish His kingdom from the throne of David. 

When Christ arrived, all the prophecies of the OT regarding the Messiah were fulfilled, and the fruition of those prophecies not yet fulfilled at Jesus's 2d coming.

Sure...I understand these things BornAgain490.

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

We have all the prophecies of God in the Bible. 

I can understand this in terms of anything pertaining to the Kingdom of God and the Fathers pre/post-creation intention for it...and all of creation itself. "Genesis is the beginnings and Revelation is the culminations."

It would seem that it is very likely to be an issue of the "revealing of" or perhaps the "interpretations of" that which is written...and has been revealed...and that which is written and yet hidden in God until it's appropriate time...that is in question here.

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

What new prophecies can you point to that are not mentioned in the Bible, but have been announced by others, that have come to pass or are prophesied to come?  And kindly name them who have made those non-biblical prophecies?

If I understand your request...from my stated perspective...new prophecies not in the bible...would be say...personal prophecies coming forth in the day to day life of the Body of Christ...for the Body of Christ...perhaps?

I have seen this repeatedly over the years among the family of God...in Christ...too many names to mention.

As for new prophecies not in the bible that are prophesied to come...they are plenteous and out in the open...I am not comfortable with mentioning their names...they are big names in religion and the church...it happens all the time.

As I said above BornAgain490...I believe that our disconnect if there is one...is very likely to be an issue of the "revealing of" or perhaps the "interpretations of" that which is written...and has been revealed...and that which is written and yet hidden in God until it's appropriate time...that is in question here.

Tatwo...:)

Edited September 21, 2024 by tatwo
fix

[tatwo]

Good questions…I’ll attempt to give you an answer from Truth.

1 hour ago, BornAgain490 said:

Okay. What theology are these modern day prophets teaching to equip the saints: is it dispensationalism, or covenantism, or hyper-dispensationalism, or Roman Catholicism, or Mormonism, or is it some other ism?

Directly after the Holy Spirit was poured out upon the Lords people…a number [at least 12] of the Lord’s personally handpicked loved and trained “disciples” were empowered [Holy Spirit] by the Lord to begin to direct the affairs of His growing spiritual Kingdom and people now on the earth…via them.

The most scriptural straight forward answer I could give you is found in Acts 2:42…emphasis mine.

“They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

My specific “named” version of “theology”…to answer your question would be “The Apostles Doctrine or Teaching” it is the only one the Lord covers and endorses with His blood.  

These brothers…"apostles"…personally loved by and entrusted with the righteous and holy ways of the Lord Himself…were given the keys to the Kingdom of God and via the eternal power of Holy Spirit they successfully established it…the Kingdom of God on earth…via a Holy Spirit empowered “apostolic doctrine.”

For a glimpse of their success and honor…and our inspiration and instruction…we can read in Revelation 21:14…in regards to the “New Jerusalem”…this is said…“the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”

Symbolic of the foundation builders that they were…that is what the “modern day prophets” are living and teaching to equip the saints…even yet today. Building on the apostolic foundation of those first brothers is the only true Bride of Christ.

Of course…a deep dive into the “Apostles Doctrine” is required for increased revelation and understanding…however that is out of the scope of this discussion at this point…though I am willing to share my findings if one wanted.

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

1 hour ago, BornAgain490 said:

What are modern day prophets teaching to equip the saints on matters of soteriology: is it the Bible as through the lens of John Calvin's teachings, the Bible as through the lens of Jacob Arminius's teachings, the Bible as through the lens of Luther's teachings, or the Bible through some others' lens?

These two questions for starters.

“Soteriology” – The branch of theology dealing with the nature and means of salvation.

The second question is in essence similar to the first…as I see it…I’ll let you decide the branch or lens that they teach for yourself…the instruction is in the scripture…emphasis mine.

Paul wrote this in Ephesians 2…“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” That can give new meaning to what it means to be “reconciled to God.”

James wrote this in the 2^nd chapter of his epistle…“Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

Elementary and basic…but clear...and what the prophets of the temple of God teach.

Tatwo…:)

[BornAgain490]

1 minute ago, tatwo said:

“Soteriology” – The branch of theology dealing with the nature and means of salvation.

The second question is in essence similar to the first…as I see it…I’ll let you decide the branch or lens that they teach for yourself…the instruction is in the scripture…emphasis mine.

Paul wrote this in Ephesians 2…“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” That can give new meaning to what it means to be “reconciled to God.”

James wrote this in the 2^nd chapter of his epistle…“Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

Elementary and basic…but clear...and what the prophets of the temple of God teach.

Tatwo…:)

You said:  "Today’s prophets of God are gifted, graced and Holy Spirit empowered to assist in the raising of the “children of God up into Christ as the “mature Spirit sons of God” as was always the plan."

You also said these prophetd are teachers training up saints and equipping them with biblical truth.  As you know, dispensationalism and covenantalism are two competing teachings on how one should read and understand the Bible.  As to end times, these two teachings are diametric, particularly concerning the view as to whether Revelation should be viewed as symbolism or viewed through the lense of literalism.

Then there's the debate whether to view Revelation through the perspective lens of preterism, historicism, futuristlm, or idealism.  

These isms cant all be true, yet they are all taught today in gatherings around the world, both camps believing their ism is the right ism. 

So, again, a true prophet teaches biblical truths, and since not all isms are Biblically true, which of the isms I've cited are the true prophets of today teaching the saints of today to equip them with biblical truths?

 

[tatwo]

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Read the text of Luke carefully, because it is a fulfillment of OT prophecy of proclaiming Messiah to the nations, and not simply to Israel. This was God's plan all along, namely: Israel was tasked with a duty to be a priestly nation, a light drawing the other nations to God. Israel failed in their task, so God sent the Messiah, just as God had planned. Jesus Messiah was the "True Light" (John 8).

Understood…Joel for example.

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

The apostles and disciples of Christ received a special annointing of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, as we clearly see in Acts 2.

That is what Paul was pointing out there in Ephesians 4…the gifts and graces of “apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher” this and these were all the first of their kind on the earth in men…and that is what I am endeavoring to show you as well.

The Holy Spirit is God…all the callings, gifting and graces of God are the unique manifestations of the Lord Himself…in Spirit…distributed as He Himself desires.

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Do you know of anyone since that Acts 2 anointing  who's had, or witnessed for themselves or someone else,  flaming tongues lighting on the heads of believers? 

“flaming tongues lighting on the heads of believers.” No not that I can remember…I have heard credible brothers and sisters say they have…not me.

I can agree that was special…I however do not limit the Holy Spirit…He can and may still do it? Whether He does or not…when a human receives the Holy Spirit in their spirit…it is the same Holy Spirit experience that visited that upper room that day…with or without a visible manifestation…a complete life transformation will verify it.

Exactly how the Holy Spirit manifests the Lord Yahshua is purely His own desire.

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

1 hour ago, BornAgain490 said:

So, again, a true prophet teaches biblical truths, and since not all isms are Biblically true, which of the isms I've cited are the true prophets of today teaching the saints of today to equip them with biblical truths?

This is really where this conversation was to go…thank you BornAgain490 for your “iron sharpens iron” attitude. I am not convinced that I can produce an adequate answer for you here…it depends on what you are looking for. I say this simply because spiritual Truth requires spiritual revelation…”Word” from the Lord Yahshua directly.

All the “isms” as you aptly named them…are largely designed to distract and devalue the believer, and to elevate the purveyor…none of which is Kingdom of God behavior and practice. I have noticed that a large number of those who disseminate these “isms” claim to be “scripture only” people...they are deceivers.

It’s true that anyone who can read…can read the bible and typically understand the words therein. Have you ever thought about the fact that until say…the last 150 -200 years illiteracy rates globally were well above 90% in most nations…though there were a few nations who fared better?

How did the “Word of God” travel among the multitudes of nations and peoples where the overwhelming constituency was illiterate?  It was via “Theopneustos words”…yeh…still is…and that is where I am going with this…Spirit of God inspired words have always revealed the presence, will and desires of our God the Father of creation to His people BornAgain490. One must have His Spirit to interpret.

The scriptures are God breathed…from the Spirit of God to the writers…all they did was record it…words on paper or parchment. Most have forgotten this and the simply trust in their ability to read and understand words on paper…claiming that know the mind of God.

Paul called the “words on stone the ministry of death” 2^nd Corinthians 3:7. It was never to be a focus about the “written word” brother…it was always about the “Spirit breathed Word”…the living active Word of God.

So…the words of scripture are the words the writers penned well enough…however the interpretation of those words only comes to the minds of men via the Holy Spirit of the living God who breathed the words…and then only if He is residing in the spirit of the man who is reading them.

I am not aware of any “isms” in the bible…man did that…and the dangerous element is that there is some truth in  those “isms”…enough to deceive the spiritual child as Paul wrote.

If you have the Holy Spirit BornAgain490…go over the post about the work of the 5 graces with the Lord Himself…yeh…ask Him to guide your spirit…develop that imitate “Father to Son” relationship He longs for with you…if I can be of any assistance let me know I am open to it. Thank you for this opportunity…may the peace of God rest upon your soul.

Tatwo...:)

 

Edited September 21, 2024 by tatwo