If I believe in Jesus but do not live a CHristian life...

[Guest mrbump]

All soles go to heaven, Hell is the place you yourself create, if you live without thought to others then you will be in the state of unsociable except with your own kind, reap what you sow. if you hate life it will hate you, Hate God he will love you back, for he knows that you dont know what you do.

[ayin jade]

All soles go to heaven, Hell is the place you yourself create, if you live without thought to others then you will be in the state of unsociable except with your own kind, reap what you sow. if you hate life it will hate you, Hate God he will love you back, for he knows that you dont know what you do.

Can you back this statement with scripture?

You cant. The bible tells us that not everyone will be saved. Jesus Himself told us that unless you believe in Him, you will die in your sins. And dying in your sins means not going to heaven. Jesus said repeatedly that some would be cast into hell, a place of torment with gnashing of teeth and crying.

[ayin jade]

Mrbump,

Who is Jesus to you?

[Keith]

We all know how we should live and we all know how we do live. Keith, nobody is going to accuse you of being un-christian because you are plainly a man who waches his Ps and Qs. Do you ever do things at any given point in time that you know are wrong? If not then I commend you because you are the only person I know who is perfect. (Sorry for the sarcasm).

Hi Gerioke,

Your very first sentence is what I'm talking about. Upfront, I admit to being the most flawed person I've ever met. In no way am I perfect or do everything right. I'm working out my salvation moment by moment like every Christian. My whole point is this: We know how we should be living. Knowing that, why then discuss the "what if's" of what we actually are doing? If what we are doing is not what we should be doing, where is the need for debating or justifying? We must simply decide to change our behavior.

My question about he sheep with playboy books is an honest question. Why seek man's opinionon this? This is a discussion forum designed for exchangeing opinions. Can a sinner perform good works? That is ulimately the question. If not, then I might as well give up because I am full of reoccuring sin. If a sinner can perform good works, then it is not as cu and dry as you would suppose. I know many christians who love the Lord with all of their hearts and accomplish much for the kingdom. Alot of these same people have been known to drink excessively, gossip repeatedly, are gluttons and so on. Are these people desined for Heaven or hell? Would Jesus turn His back on a faithful servant even if they are a drunkard?

Ger, I only used your example of the Playboys because it was presented. I hope you know by now I would never attack or condemn you or anyone for anything. At least I try so very hard not to! Should a Christian have Playboys? Of course not! Why? Because they're of God. They fuel lust and sexual immorality. If someone has them, they should get rid of them if for no other reason than because they love and desire to obey the Word. Because it pleases God. How can any further debate on this be profitable for anyone? As far as "will this keep us from heaven or send us to hell," which man can say? It is for God alone to make that decision. It goes beyond having Playboys. That's why man can't make this decision. God sees beyond the actual having of Playboys. He sees our motives. Having them but not wanting to be a slave to them means nothing unless the person surrenders it and trusts God. Good intentions aren't what we are called to do. No one should ever say that this or that person is going to hell because we don't know everything. We aren't the Judge. So, since we cannot make that decision, where is the profit in debating it? It is God's job. Our job is to walk rightly before Him. Period.

Deppression runs rampant in the christian community and alhough we are to focus on Jesus, sometimes life hands out more than a person can bare. I hate my iniquity but sometimes it keeps me from going to worse places.

Yes, depression is rampant. But it is because of the choices we're making in how we handle those things that "life hands out." Depression is, in all honesty, a selfish emotion that stems from thinking about ourselves too much and not trusting God in the situations that present themselves. We know He is fully able to overcome them and bring us through, causing us to grow because of them. But getting depressed is a form of giving up and even laziness. I'm not trying to insult anyone who is depressed. I am only stating the truth. I have experienced this. I was depressed for years. I finally came out of it completely, and whole, only by finally getting sick and tired enough of it and deciding that since I was already hurting, that I was going to trust God with the situation. To honestly give it to Him to work out and bring me through. I had already proven that I couldn't do it. It wasn't easy and I'm not trying to be flip about it. But I am saying that it works!

If we know how we are to live, why debate how we actually are living? That's what I mean I said that it's just a way of trying to find some sort of loophole, false comfort to justify where we are and that it's not our fault. We have to be willing to change our behavior and trust God with the situation and our pain. There is no other way. When we became Christians, we are no longer our own, but His. We sign over our rights to ourselves for Him. Are we perfect at it? No. But we have to be careful about using that as an excuse, too.

[Keith]

I agree Gerioke, it's not simple and I think we need to talk about it more. Obviously the person who started this thread and numerous others I think is a poser having a good ole time, but the question is a good one.

How isn't it simple? Even Gerioke himself said that we all know how we should be living, even if it's not how we actually are living. Playboys? Get rid of them. It's that simple. Anything else is trying to justify. What is so complicated that it warrants a disscussion?

If it was so simple we wouldn't have so many divorced Christians, if it was simple we wouldn't have so many Christians entangled in numerous sins of the flesh (including myself). This life is very hard and it is a lifelong struggle, flesh against the Spirit. But we also have a comfort that we would not have if we didn't believe, and I think this helps us fight despair.

Christians getting divorced doesn't mean how we are to live is complicated. Christians divorce because of the decisions they make. They divorce because they aren't following the guidelines that the Bible gives us as to how we should live. You can't blame the cure for the disease. The numerous sins of the flesh that you mentioned are the disease. If we know these things are not to be done, why do we do them? We should simply turn away from them. (See my post above to Gerioke.) Debating these things only serves to justify them.

I don't think Christians automatically know or understand what leading a Christian life means today, and part of the role of the Church and Christian discussion like this one is to help with the nitty gritty details of how to live that life.

There is a sense of right and wrong in all of us. It may become skewed by our life experiences and decisions and desensitizing, but, especially with access to God and His Word, we can know what leading a Christian life means today. We can read the Word and see what it means. The meaning hasn't changed. The Bible deals with the nitty gritty details of how to live a Christian life.

[Gerioke]

Keith

I'm just trying to determine where the line is drawn as far as grace is concerned. Surely God wouldn't offer grace if He expected us to be perfect. I want a realistic idea of something to shoot for since perfecion is so miserably far out of my grasp.

Am I a wannabe Christian?

[nebula]

Actually this example begs the quesion, What is living a chrisian Life?

If we are preaching the gospel and helping tthe less fortunate, are we not obeying Jesus, even though we may succumb to he evils of the world. It makes for an ineresing paradox.

If this is off topic then I will shut up.

Well, as far as Daughterof King goes - I think it is off topic.

What I mean is, if you look at her many question posts - what is it she is after?

Is she after the heart of God?

Is she seeking to nurture her Christian faith?

Is she "setting her mind on things above" or on "earthly things"?

Do you believe she is merely throwing out theology debates, or is she more in love with the world than she is in love with Jesus?

If one has the Spirit of God inside, how can one not have the conviction of the Spirit?

It sounds to me and many others that she is more interested in justifying her idols than really being concerned about the heart of God.

Now, someone with the problems above you mentioned may be problems that don't have to do with "I want to live as I please" but an addiction or weakness.

Of course, with the Sheep and the Goats, you need to balance Scripture with Scripture. Remember what Jesus said about the people saying, "Lord! Lord!" and He replies, "I never knew you"? Or Paul's message about if I do this and that, but have not love. . . ?

Do you see what I'm saying?

All soles go to heaven,

And where does the rest of the shoe go?

(sorry - it was just tooo good to pass up)

[Keith]

Keith

I'm just trying to determine where the line is drawn as far as grace is concerned. Surely God wouldn't offer grace if He expected us to be perfect. I want a realistic idea of something to shoot for since perfecion is so miserably far out of my grasp.

Am I a wannabe Christian?

Now THAT'S a very valid question and one that every single Christian has asked of themselves... more than once! Am I sincerely a Christian? Again, men can give advice and suggestions but the true answer is going to lie with God. But we can know the answer to that by spending time with Him and asking Him. Are we doing the things we know we ought to do? If not, why not? What are we doing about it? When we have a personal relationship with Him - taking it beyond religion - we will spend time with Him and learn to hear His voice. The Bible says that His sheep hear His voice.

Be very careful when "drawing the line with grace." That's where many Christians have made mistakes and abused grace. Our consciences are part of knowing when to draw the line. The Bible gives a very realistic idea of how we should live because God is fully able to give us the strength, power and daily supplies of what we need to live that way. To look at that way of living and say, "I can't live that way! It's impossible! Give me something more realistic!" is like saying, "Sorry, no can do. I'd have to work too hard and be way more diligent than I care to be." How we live is not negotiable with God. He's not trying to be a task-master, giving us impossible things to do. Look at it this way, bro... God does not call the qualified. He qualifies the called. We just have to choose to love Him more than we love ourselves. That is the choice before us.

Hebrews 3:14-15 "For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, while it is said: </I>

[Keith]

Keith

I'm just trying to determine where the line is drawn as far as grace is concerned. Surely God wouldn't offer grace if He expected us to be perfect. I want a realistic idea of something to shoot for since perfecion is so miserably far out of my grasp.

Am I a wannabe Christian?

Gerioke,

By the way, I just wanted to add this one more thought. Your post above is a great one. It's honest and sincere. It comes from you wanting to grow in Him. You're seeking. It's not like the type of posts I was describing earlier. Posts like this one are very profitable to discuss. It's just that there is a fine line before crossing over into justification our sins and the things we do. Not to mention all the splitting-hairs that some people so love to do! I would be happy to discuss this with you all day long because there is a BIG difference in asking questions out of seeking to truly know how we should live. It's quite another to theologically, haromeutically, philosophically and pridefully pick something apart, split hairs, and find the need to disect everything. There are mysteries in the Bible, but how Christians should live isn't one of them. God wants us to know Him and His Word. He isn't trying to make a game, puzzle or joke out of us by making it nearly impossible to understand.

[Keith]

Here's my very shortened version of utilizing grace: If God knows I am truly seeking after Him, relying on Him, and doing my best to live for Him, He is going to favor me with His grace because He knows as a human that I'm imperfect and am going to fail at times. I won't use His grace as an excuse/reason/justification to sin just because I am imperfect.