thoughts on the Anti-Christ

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, Charlie744 said:

I do understand and agree with you. But the RCC is guilty of disobeying the first three commandments (and also changing the 4th). Meaning, they claim divinity- breaking the first, they worship idols- breaking the 2nd commandment, they take God name in vain, meaning they profess Jesus in name ONLY. They do not obey the teachings of Jesus. There are many other religious organizations that claim the name of Jesus…. But how many of them have done so AND corrupted the Gospel of Jesus? ABSOLUTELY NO other church has made the claim that their leader is divine and equal to God. 
 

I am not too familiar with the Mormons or the Jehovah Witnesses but I do believe these and many others have no problem claiming they are followers of Christ … 

Look at what they do and profess and teach … everything they do is contrary to what Jesus tells us to do. 
 

 

Thank you very much for your thoughts and if you do not mind, I will respond to your comments later on. 
 

Best wishes always. 

[AdHoc]

59 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

All the elements of antichrist must be present, don't you agree?  One element is that antichrist will deny that Jesus is Messiah and will deny that Messiah has come, and will deny the Father and the Son.  The RCC cannot be antichrist because it has always confessed Jesus as Messiah and has never denied the Father or that Messiah has come in the flesh. I agree that the leadership of the RCC is apostate, but so are many non-RCC pastors, as are all non-Christian religions.  Unless the RCC renounces Jesus as the Messiah and rejects the Father and the Son, we need to look at other possibilities. 

Exactly. "Anti" does not mean "denial of Christ", nor denial that Jesus is come in the flesh. It is about the MAN they place in the highest and holiest place INSTEAD of the MAN Jesus.

But the RCC suffers another fate. The Beast cannot tolerate the variety of religions on earth. The whole earth must worship him IN UNISON. That is why the ten kings who invest in the Beast destroy the Harlot and with her, her daughters. All counterfeit religion must go. The Beast and Satan must be sole recipients of worship. That is also why the tares are harvested BEFORE the Wheat in Matthew 13. Chapter 17 of Revelation comes before Armageddon.

[BornAgain490]

34 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

There are many other religious organizations that claim the name of Jesus…. But how many of them have done so AND corrupted the Gospel of Jesus?

Two prominent religions do so:  Judaism and Islam. 

[Charlie744]

7 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

All the elements of antichrist must be present, don't you agree? 

Yes, I agree. But I do not think this is one of them. This is a conviction of the "ceramic clay," those Jews who rejected Jesus as their Messiah. But I do not believe this is found in any one of the many verses about the little horn in Daniel 7 and 8. And sorry for repeating myself, but there is absolutely no mention of an anti-Christ figure in Daniel or ANY book of the NT. There is only the mention of the "anti-Christ" spirit which is anything that is "against the teachings of Jesus."

7 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

 

One element is that antichrist will deny that Jesus is Messiah and will deny that Messiah has come, and will deny the Father and the Son. 

Again, no literal "anti-Christ" person.... I would respectfully ask that you might consider the prophecies in Daniel 7 and 8 where God reveals the coming of the little horn (out of pagan Rome, the 4th beast kingdom. And what you might also want to consider is verse 7:11, where God reveals this same 4th beast kingdom (pagan Rome) will be slain and its body is destroyed. Indeed this came true around the late 400 AD period. Pagan Rome had declined and would soon come to its end. The Christian church would have grown tremendously in power and might during this same period, and the Christian church, headed by the Roman bishop would succeed pagan Rome. Of course, the Roman bishop would be come to be known (given to himself) as the Vicar of Christ - the Pope. - the little horn who would come to sit atop the 4th kingdom beast that would now be identified as papal Rome.

7 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

The RCC cannot be antichrist because it has always confessed Jesus as Messiah and has never denied the Father or that Messiah has come in the flesh.

He is not the anti-Christ - but he is the little horn.

7 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

I agree that the leadership of the RCC is apostate, but so are many non-RCC pastors, as are all non-Christian religions.  Unless the RCC renounces Jesus as the Messiah and rejects the Father and the Son, we need to look at other possibilities. 

No, they certainly call Jesus their God, but in name only.... they do not do the will of God. If they claim the papacy is God on earth, and equal to God, and if we ignore ALL the other false teachings and practices of the RCC, all the millions of people they murdered, etc., do you think that is enough evidence to demonstrate how they have placed themselves equal to or above Jesus?  

[Charlie744]

7 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

All the elements of antichrist must be present, don't you agree? 

Yes, I agree. But I do not think this is one of them. This is a conviction of the "ceramic clay," those Jews who rejected Jesus as their Messiah. But I do not believe this is found in any one of the many verses about the little horn in Daniel 7 and 8. And sorry for repeating myself, but there is absolutely no mention of an anti-Christ figure in Daniel or ANY book of the NT. There is only the mention of the "anti-Christ" spirit which is anything that is "against the teachings of Jesus."

7 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

 

One element is that antichrist will deny that Jesus is Messiah and will deny that Messiah has come, and will deny the Father and the Son. 

Again, no literal "anti-Christ" person.... I would respectfully ask that you might consider the prophecies in Daniel 7 and 8 where God reveals the coming of the little horn (out of pagan Rome, the 4th beast kingdom. And what you might also want to consider is verse 7:11, where God reveals this same 4th beast kingdom (pagan Rome) will be slain and its body is destroyed. Indeed this came true around the late 400 AD period. Pagan Rome had declined and would soon come to its end. The Christian church would have grown tremendously in power and might during this same period, and the Christian church, headed by the Roman bishop would succeed pagan Rome. Of course, the Roman bishop would be come to be known (given to himself) as the Vicar of Christ - the Pope. - the little horn who would come to sit atop the 4th kingdom beast that would now be identified as papal Rome.

7 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

The RCC cannot be antichrist because it has always confessed Jesus as Messiah and has never denied the Father or that Messiah has come in the flesh.

He is not the anti-Christ - but he is the little horn.

7 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

I agree that the leadership of the RCC is apostate, but so are many non-RCC pastors, as are all non-Christian religions.  Unless the RCC renounces Jesus as the Messiah and rejects the Father and the Son, we need to look at other possibilities. 

No, they certainly call Jesus their God, but in name only.... they do not do the will of God. If they claim the papacy is God on earth, and equal to God, and if we ignore ALL the other false teachings and practices of the RCC, all the millions of people they murdered, etc., do you think that is enough evidence to demonstrate how they have placed themselves equal to or above Jesus?  

[Charlie744]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thanks for your reply. You are right about expositors not agreeing. And I think I know why. Daniel pertains to "Your (Daniel's) People" and three things have occurred that hamper things.

Yes, it specifically mentions "it is for Daniel's city and people," not God's  city and people because the Book of Daniel is written to the Jews who will be returning to Jerusalem after the exile. It can only be relevant to them since after the cross, God would disperse all of His people, allow the Romans to destroy the city, the Temple, etc. Only Daniel's people are given these prophecies since it speaks directly to the "restoration" of the city and the Sanctuary and their way of life as it was prior to the Babylonian exile.  But of course, God does provide some very important prophecies that will take place AFTER the cross.

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

1. The Book is sealed

Yes, in two places within Daniel it is mentioned that these prophecies will be sealed or shut up, etc. And each of them have very different meanings. In the verse 8:26, there are two mentions of the English word "visions." The first mention of vision in Hebrew is the word "mareh." This specifically speaks to the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy found in 8:14. This type of "vision" is a short term type of vision that speaks to an "appearance" or "sight" type vision. Meaning, this specifically refers to the appearance of the coming Messiah - it is He that refers to the 2300 days prophecy.

But in the second mention of "vision," in verse 26, we find it is translated from the Hebrew word "chazon." This is quite different than the "mareh" vision. The "chazon" vision is a long term vision given by Gabriel. It covers the entire prophetic vision beginning with the 70 weeks of years to the end of time when the Messiah will return. Here is how this works:

1) the long term vision (chazon) that Gabriel will give to Daniel covers everything from 457 BC to His return,

2) the 70 weeks of years prophecy in Chapter 9 covers everything from 457 BC to 33/34 AD - the end of the 490 years,

3) the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy (mareh vision) is found within the last week of the 70 weeks of years  prophecy and speaks to the Messiah.

In this Chapter 8, Daniel is instructed to "seal up" the vision. This is not because it is to be kept quiet or secret until the end of time, but because it is written ONLY for the Jews when they return to Jerusalem. God is not giving His Messianic prophecies to the Gentiles but to His people. Remember, at that time of Chapters 6, 7, 8 and 9, Daniel is still in Babylon. Only Chapter 9 of the 4 is given to Daniel after Babylon was conquered. These prophecies, unlike the dream in Chapter 2 or the vision in Chapter 7 are written in Aramaic. In 8:16, Gabriel is instructed by God to make him understand the "mareh" vision - the short term vision. This reflects the time of the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. In 8:17, Gabriel tells Daniel the "vision" (chazon or long term vision) refers to the time of the end (truly end times). So, one "vision" speaks to the Messiah within the Chapter 9 prophecy, while the other "vision" speaks to all of the prophecies up till the end of time.

 

In Chapter 12, Daniel is told to "seal up the book." Again, this does not mean to keep it secret or that we are not permitted to understand what it is saying, rather, God is telling us that this is the last prophecies He will give to Daniel until His second coming. They are complete and we have all the prophetic information He has deemed to give us prior to His coming in the first century. God is revealing His prophecies not trying to hide them from us.

 

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

2. Daniel's people are reaping the fruit of breaking the Law and won't admit it. For this God sends delusion

I certainly agree with you completely. And that is indeed also prophesized. EVERY interpretation I have read contends the AOD, or the "abomination that causes desolation" refers to one of three possible events:

1) the destruction caused by AE about 200 years before the arrival of the Messiah,or,

2) it reflects the destruction that took place in 70 AD, or,

3) it reflects the destruction that will take place in the future when a 3rd Temple will be constructed. 

But this AOD does not refer to any one of these. It specifically refers to the cross. This most "abominable act" that was perpetrated against the Messiah by His people is indeed the "abomination that will CAUSE desolation"  Not only are we to consider this term as referring to the "abominable act," but also if we look into Leviticus, we will find this term "abomination" defined as it relates to the Levitical ceremonies - certainly the Passover ceremony where any "unclean or impure" thing corrupts the Temple, the High Priest of the sacrifical  Lamb, etc., is an "abomination" in the site  of the Lord. Now, Jesus is indeed pure and never sinned, however, when He took on the sin of the world, He indeed becams "impure / unclean / an abomination" in the eyes of God. Thus, according to the laws in Leviticus, this unclean thing would be taken outside the city gates and thrown away. Jesus, was indeed taken and crucified outside the city walls.

And it is because of this that God would punish His people for rejecting and crucifying their Messiah. God would "make desolate" Him from His people for over 2000 years. He would "turn His face from them" until the "Times of the Gentiles" is complete. This is the "consequences to His people for rejecting their Messiah.

 

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

3. Daniel's people vehemently reject Messiah and, if possible, would murder Christians. God sends blindness

Agreed. 

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

When God sends these restrictions they have an effect on all men - even the sincere. My understanding is that Daniel is written for "Daniel's People". Of course we study "ALL scripture", but just as the New Covenant is made with the two Houses of Israel and is a Covenant of God's Laws (Jer.31:31-33), so also is Daniel written for and about Jews (or Israel if you wish). Even the obvious "gap" in Chapter 9 is consistent with God not counting the years of foreign rule over Israel. In Luke 19:44 our Lord Jesus intimated that Israel could have known the time of messiah's visitation.
 

I agree with much of what you are saying but, if I assume what you are saying about a "gap"  in Chapter 9, I would like to mention there is absolutely no "gap" in Chapter 9. Everything that was to be restored after the Jews returned to Jerusalem was completed. Everything the Messiah (Ark of the Covenant or Presence of God in the Holy of Holies) was also completed. There was nothing left to complete that needed to be completed for the "restoration of the city and the Sanctuary." 

And that would bring us to the last week of the prophecy. Everything was restored, the last piece of furniture in the Sanctuary was restored by the coming Messiah. He arrived on the very first day of the 70th week and He was given this last week to fulfill His God given mission - the Jews had completed theirs by the end of the 69th week. Now it is Jesus's turn. And despite that He was crucified exactly 3.5 years WITHIN the last 7 years of the prophecy, He would indeed fulfill all that God had given Him to complete. Consequently, there is nothing left to complete or fulfill even though He was "cut off" in the "midst of the week."

You are correct, God had given all the prophecies in Daniel that were necessary for them to expect and recognize their  Messiah. They were expecting Him to come when He did, but they were looking for a King not a suffering servant. There is absolutely no way they could conceive their God would come as a mortal man. And for this man to claim He is God... was simply too much for them to bear.

 

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

So will it be at the end. There is enough hint in Daniel to calculate the end - if you get the start right. But consider ... there is no prophecy for the Church. It is very instructive in seeking the mind of God, and for instruction in God's glory, but nothing pertains to the Church. If we are around on earth when the 1260 days are unleashed, we are appointed to wrath and we are doomed to unspeakable sorrow. If we are raptured away from the scene of the Great Tribulation, Daniel won't mean a thing.

Go well brother ... and may the Lord give you more light. WE all need it.

Again, thank you for your comments. Please respond to me and let me know your thoughts - pro or con and also tell me what you mean in the last paragraph when you mention the 1260 days.... I don't know where that comes from. Thanks again.

[Charlie744]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thanks for your reply. You are right about expositors not agreeing. And I think I know why. Daniel pertains to "Your (Daniel's) People" and three things have occurred that hamper things.

Yes, it specifically mentions "it is for Daniel's city and people," not God's  city and people because the Book of Daniel is written to the Jews who will be returning to Jerusalem after the exile. It can only be relevant to them since after the cross, God would disperse all of His people, allow the Romans to destroy the city, the Temple, etc. Only Daniel's people are given these prophecies since it speaks directly to the "restoration" of the city and the Sanctuary and their way of life as it was prior to the Babylonian exile.  But of course, God does provide some very important prophecies that will take place AFTER the cross.

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

1. The Book is sealed

Yes, in two places within Daniel it is mentioned that these prophecies will be sealed or shut up, etc. And each of them have very different meanings. In the verse 8:26, there are two mentions of the English word "visions." The first mention of vision in Hebrew is the word "mareh." This specifically speaks to the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy found in 8:14. This type of "vision" is a short term type of vision that speaks to an "appearance" or "sight" type vision. Meaning, this specifically refers to the appearance of the coming Messiah - it is He that refers to the 2300 days prophecy.

But in the second mention of "vision," in verse 26, we find it is translated from the Hebrew word "chazon." This is quite different than the "mareh" vision. The "chazon" vision is a long term vision given by Gabriel. It covers the entire prophetic vision beginning with the 70 weeks of years to the end of time when the Messiah will return. Here is how this works:

1) the long term vision (chazon) that Gabriel will give to Daniel covers everything from 457 BC to His return,

2) the 70 weeks of years prophecy in Chapter 9 covers everything from 457 BC to 33/34 AD - the end of the 490 years,

3) the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy (mareh vision) is found within the last week of the 70 weeks of years  prophecy and speaks to the Messiah.

In this Chapter 8, Daniel is instructed to "seal up" the vision. This is not because it is to be kept quiet or secret until the end of time, but because it is written ONLY for the Jews when they return to Jerusalem. God is not giving His Messianic prophecies to the Gentiles but to His people. Remember, at that time of Chapters 6, 7, 8 and 9, Daniel is still in Babylon. Only Chapter 9 of the 4 is given to Daniel after Babylon was conquered. These prophecies, unlike the dream in Chapter 2 or the vision in Chapter 7 are written in Aramaic. In 8:16, Gabriel is instructed by God to make him understand the "mareh" vision - the short term vision. This reflects the time of the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. In 8:17, Gabriel tells Daniel the "vision" (chazon or long term vision) refers to the time of the end (truly end times). So, one "vision" speaks to the Messiah within the Chapter 9 prophecy, while the other "vision" speaks to all of the prophecies up till the end of time.

 

In Chapter 12, Daniel is told to "seal up the book." Again, this does not mean to keep it secret or that we are not permitted to understand what it is saying, rather, God is telling us that this is the last prophecies He will give to Daniel until His second coming. They are complete and we have all the prophetic information He has deemed to give us prior to His coming in the first century. God is revealing His prophecies not trying to hide them from us.

 

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

2. Daniel's people are reaping the fruit of breaking the Law and won't admit it. For this God sends delusion

I certainly agree with you completely. And that is indeed also prophesized. EVERY interpretation I have read contends the AOD, or the "abomination that causes desolation" refers to one of three possible events:

1) the destruction caused by AE about 200 years before the arrival of the Messiah,or,

2) it reflects the destruction that took place in 70 AD, or,

3) it reflects the destruction that will take place in the future when a 3rd Temple will be constructed. 

But this AOD does not refer to any one of these. It specifically refers to the cross. This most "abominable act" that was perpetrated against the Messiah by His people is indeed the "abomination that will CAUSE desolation"  Not only are we to consider this term as referring to the "abominable act," but also if we look into Leviticus, we will find this term "abomination" defined as it relates to the Levitical ceremonies - certainly the Passover ceremony where any "unclean or impure" thing corrupts the Temple, the High Priest of the sacrifical  Lamb, etc., is an "abomination" in the site  of the Lord. Now, Jesus is indeed pure and never sinned, however, when He took on the sin of the world, He indeed becams "impure / unclean / an abomination" in the eyes of God. Thus, according to the laws in Leviticus, this unclean thing would be taken outside the city gates and thrown away. Jesus, was indeed taken and crucified outside the city walls.

And it is because of this that God would punish His people for rejecting and crucifying their Messiah. God would "make desolate" Him from His people for over 2000 years. He would "turn His face from them" until the "Times of the Gentiles" is complete. This is the "consequences to His people for rejecting their Messiah.

 

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

3. Daniel's people vehemently reject Messiah and, if possible, would murder Christians. God sends blindness

Agreed. 

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

When God sends these restrictions they have an effect on all men - even the sincere. My understanding is that Daniel is written for "Daniel's People". Of course we study "ALL scripture", but just as the New Covenant is made with the two Houses of Israel and is a Covenant of God's Laws (Jer.31:31-33), so also is Daniel written for and about Jews (or Israel if you wish). Even the obvious "gap" in Chapter 9 is consistent with God not counting the years of foreign rule over Israel. In Luke 19:44 our Lord Jesus intimated that Israel could have known the time of messiah's visitation.
 

I agree with much of what you are saying but, if I assume what you are saying about a "gap"  in Chapter 9, I would like to mention there is absolutely no "gap" in Chapter 9. Everything that was to be restored after the Jews returned to Jerusalem was completed. Everything the Messiah (Ark of the Covenant or Presence of God in the Holy of Holies) was also completed. There was nothing left to complete that needed to be completed for the "restoration of the city and the Sanctuary." 

And that would bring us to the last week of the prophecy. Everything was restored, the last piece of furniture in the Sanctuary was restored by the coming Messiah. He arrived on the very first day of the 70th week and He was given this last week to fulfill His God given mission - the Jews had completed theirs by the end of the 69th week. Now it is Jesus's turn. And despite that He was crucified exactly 3.5 years WITHIN the last 7 years of the prophecy, He would indeed fulfill all that God had given Him to complete. Consequently, there is nothing left to complete or fulfill even though He was "cut off" in the "midst of the week."

You are correct, God had given all the prophecies in Daniel that were necessary for them to expect and recognize their  Messiah. They were expecting Him to come when He did, but they were looking for a King not a suffering servant. There is absolutely no way they could conceive their God would come as a mortal man. And for this man to claim He is God... was simply too much for them to bear.

 

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

So will it be at the end. There is enough hint in Daniel to calculate the end - if you get the start right. But consider ... there is no prophecy for the Church. It is very instructive in seeking the mind of God, and for instruction in God's glory, but nothing pertains to the Church. If we are around on earth when the 1260 days are unleashed, we are appointed to wrath and we are doomed to unspeakable sorrow. If we are raptured away from the scene of the Great Tribulation, Daniel won't mean a thing.

Go well brother ... and may the Lord give you more light. WE all need it.

Again, thank you for your comments. Please respond to me and let me know your thoughts - pro or con and also tell me what you mean in the last paragraph when you mention the 1260 days.... I don't know where that comes from. Thanks again.