Sheep/Goats Judgement not same as Great White Throne?

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

There is a debate in the Christian community on the timing. What is important is that it will happen. And rewards will

either be passed out or deleted.

Actually, I was referring to the place the Bema will happen - in heaven or on earth?

[tatwo]

23 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

A local brother gave a message today on the sheep/goat judgement starting in Matthew 25:21.  He shared that this judgement takes place shortly after the judgement seat of Christ (Bema judgement of believers) and is for those nonbelievers who survive the great tribulation period.  He said that this is diferent than the great white throne judgement in Revelation 20.

I would agree that this is not the great white throne judgment…as for it being the “nonbelievers who survive the great tribulation period”…well perhaps we take a closer look?

How about a little background…the Lord Yahshua having just come away from delivering a scathing rebuke and judgment to the “Scribes and Pharisees” in the temple…and His lament over the condition of Israel in Chapter 23…Yahshua leaves the temple…and begins heading towards the Mount of Olives.

After coming out of the temple…He pointed at the temple and surrounding buildings and said… “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.” So…as it appears to me…the Lord of Glory felt that it was time to prophesy judgment upon Israel…specifically there in Jerusalem…so…He was in “that” kind of a “mood?”

Moving on into chapter 24…we can see where the Lord Yahshua gets to the Mount of Olives and His disciples inquire of Him privately as to “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" Here they associate the things He had spoken of…with His return to end the age.

He begins by speaking about the “signs” that would accompany the “end of the age”…and in parables of the same. “Abomination of Desolation, His return, Fig tree, No one knows the day and the hour”…Into chapter 25…the “Ten virgins, Talents, and Final judgments” including Chapter 26 starting with “the plot to kill Him.”

So…from His judgment of Israel Chapter 23…all the way through His return at the end of the age including what is understood to be…“final judgments”…at the end of chapter 25…His message…is one of “summation and separation culminating with His judgments.” All of this upon His return…and curiously missing is any reference to a “secret return” in between the destruction of the temple grounds and His age ending return in Matthew 25.

I am sure the “air” was full of angels…fallen and faithful in that day…the disciples sensed there was some horrible scenario’s headed their way as the Lord stated…and this prior to and culminating with His  return…and of course they believed Him.

Tatwo..:)

[tatwo]

So…when we come to the end of chapter 25 where the Lord returns and issues His judgment and commences the separation of “all the peoples of the nations”…in verse 46 the Lord says…“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life”…this should be considered the “final judgment” of this age…happening at His return. That is likely why He said…“All the nations will be gathered before Him…” this obviously includes the Kingdom of God.

He is saying that the “unloving and unrighteous” are sentenced to the “sea of the dead and Hades” until the second death…not being “qualified” for the first resurrection…which by the way also happens at His return. Revelation 20:4-6

If I understand this scenario correctly…He references “sheep” and “goats”…the “sheep” are those who constitute His own on the earth and in heaven…the goats are the rest…there is only two groups shown here.

Matthew 25:11-13 the message of the parable of the ten virgins is…be sure to keep plenty of oil [Holy Spirit] in your vessel and be ready, prepared and attentive to the signs of the “bridegroom’s” arrival. If not…you will be “separated out” from those who are…“sheep from goats?”

Matthew 25:25-30 the message of the parable of the talents is… Be sure to take that which you were given talent [call] and put it to its intended use [God’s will for your life] in the service of your “master.” For those who do not…what you have will be taken from you…and again…we see a separation from those who were obedient…“sheep from goats?”

First you have the parable of the virgins, then the parable of the talents both indicating the separation of the “prepared and obedient” from those who were not. In both cases…those who “do well” shall I say…are to be referenced as “His”…I say that because He is the “Good Shepherd” making His Body the “Sheep.”

Matthew 25:31-33…I read this message…as the “culmination” of this age…likely just prior to the millennial reign where “all the nations” are assembled in His presence. This is where “those” who were set to the “right” and were prepared and ready…faithfully and obediently living out God’s will for their lives in the unique, peculiar and divine call God put on their life…Ephesians 2:10. These are the “sheep” comprised of both the dead and those yet living on the earth “in Christ.”

The Lord to refers to His people…His Body as “His glory” [John 17:22]. In 2^nd Thessalonians 1:5-12 with a focus on verse 10…Paul basically describes the same scenario as the Lord Himself in Matthew 25…with judgment, separation, affliction, retribution, eternal destruction, power, glory, saints and angels.

Yahshua comes in “His glory”…“Him as Head and His Body” appears as “One Spiritual Man…in God’s image and likeness…the Fathers Son…Christ.”

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

23 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

So it appears the Matthew 25 judgement is to determine who (from the nations) will populate the earth during the millennial kingdom. 

Interesting thought Vine…but doesn’t verse 46 say…“These [goats] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous [sheep] into eternal life.”  Unless you are saying that in the millennial age earth is for the goats?

23 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

That is, it will be those who showed kindness to even one of the least of Christ's brethren. (see Matt 25:36 & 43) 

Well I would assign that designation to the “sheep on the right” VA…huh? I only see two groups in those passages.

23 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

(BTW - it's amazing that Christ is setting the inclusion bar pretty low here - "even to ONE the LEAST of my brethren"!  What mercy!)

I am not sure what you are thinking here VA but…it’s the righteous verse 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him…” who are said to be acting lovingly…and notice in verse 40 that it was toward…“these brothers of Mine”…and that too…would have to be the righteous as well…no? So it’s a picture of “loving one another and He has loved us”…right? It’s a picture of His Body active in this life on the earth…isn’t it?

The idea of who it is that are on the earth during the millennial age is interesting to be sure…and needs an upgrade in revelation and understanding…and it’s being made available now. However it doesn’t seem likely that it could be the goats on the left…does it? Their judgment has them in the…”sea of the dead and Hades”…as it would seem from the text.

Tatwo...:)

[Vine Abider]

2 hours ago, tatwo said:

I am not sure what you are thinking here VA but…it’s the righteous verse 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him…” who are said to be acting lovingly…and notice in verse 40 that it was toward…“these brothers of Mine”…and that too…would have to be the righteous as well…no? So it’s a picture of “loving one another and He has loved us”…right? It’s a picture of His Body active in this life on the earth…isn’t it?

The idea of who it is that are on the earth during the millennial age is interesting to be sure…and needs an upgrade in revelation and understanding…and it’s being made available now. However it doesn’t seem likely that it could be the goats on the left…does it? Their judgment has them in the…”sea of the dead and Hades”…as it would seem from the text.

Tatwo...:)

I'm seeing that the ones who showed compassion to the Lord's brethren are then constituted righteous by just this act.  As I read it, the focus of the passage is how people during the tribulation period, behaved toward believers (and maybe Jews?).  I know Jesus calls believers "sheep," but doesn't He say He has other flocks too? So it would seem that the ones that righteously showed compassion are the sheep from the nations that will populate the nations of the kingdom age, with the rewarded saints ruling over them.

[missmuffet]

4 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Actually, I was referring to the place the Bema will happen - in heaven or on earth?

I think I stated in heaven.

[Vine Abider]

12 hours ago, missmuffet said:

I think I stated in heaven.

You did, and I was asking for a specific reference for that. 

[Neighbor]

Side note: will timing affect judgement(s) rendered? If not I will still remain content to, as I call it, ride the rear facing seat of the family station wagon to my destination.

[missmuffet]

4 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

You did, and I was asking for a specific reference for that. 

You think that the Judgment is not in heaven?

[missmuffet]

2 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Side note: will timing affect judgement(s) rendered? If not I will still remain content to, as I call it, ride the rear facing seat of the family station wagon to my destination.

"will timing affect judgement(s) rendered?"

Please explain.