Selective Rapture

[Luther]

On 12/27/2024 at 1:08 PM, Feedmysheep said:

Perhaps to put a little more clarity to this subject I'll dispense of a few assumptions that some may hold as an initial  reaction.

1.)  I am not saying Christian can be so assured that they will be raptured pre-tribulation. Otherwise there would not be the warning to watch.

2.) I am not saying failure to be rapture pre-tribulation is evidence of not having been justified by faith for eternal life.

3.) I am not saying the requirement for eternal redemption is exactly the requirement for early rapture. 

4.) It should be obvious that I am not saying only unbelievers will be left to pass through the great tribulation.

5.) It should be evident that I am saying all believers are  not raptured at the same time, though all inevitably are raptured.  

And to be clear, what would be the scriptural basis for some believers to go up while others stay down? Just need a starting point to work from. Thank you. 

[Feedmysheep]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

 

While we untangle what you claim you FIRST asked of me, I will respond to some thoughts . 

<<<Just because Paul used "firstfruits" in 1 Cor 15:23 to point to the fact that Jesus was the first human to receive a resurrection body is NO REASON to carry the idea of harvest into resurrection.>>>

The main reason for me speaking of firstfruits / harvest in resurrection in rapture is because Revelation chapter 14.   Revelation 14:1-5 is on the firstfruits taken to a heavenly mount Zion. And Revelation 14:14-16 is about the harvest resurrected and raptured to Christ who by that time is hovering near to the surface of the earth having come down from the third heavens.

None of this does any damage to the term firstfruits being used elsewhere in Scripture to signify something else. ie. "the firstfruits, Christ" in 1 Cor. 15.

<<<Not "implanted" as a seed.  Please give up the focus on agriculture harvest being linked to resurrection.>>>

No. The growth of the implanted divine life of Christ culminating in human believers should be maintained.  

What should be appreciated is that even in First Corinthians 15 Paul speaks of the quality of resurrection glory being influenced by the degree of saturation of the divine life.  For example:

But someone will say, How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come? Foolish man, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies; (v.35)

The link between agricultural planting and growing is seen in death and resurrection.

And what you sow, you do not sow the body that will be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of some other of the rest. But God gives it a body even as He willed, and to each of the seeds its own body. (v.36) 

The analogy of planting for growth is used in God giving the resurrected body the degree of glory He wills.

All flesh is not the same flesh, but one is of men, and another flesh is of cattle, and another is of birds, and another is of fish. (v.37)

The anology of different kinds of flesh is used to point to different degrees of glory of resurrection bodies. 

There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly is one thing, and that of the earthly is another. (v.38)

Though we may understand Paul to be binary here - either you are a raised heavenly bodied person or a raised earthly bodied person, the analogy of the heavenly bodied resurrected persons varies as the heavenly bodies vary.

There is another glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. (v.39) 

All resurrected saints at the end of the church age will not have the same degree of glory. But they will differ as star differs from star in glory. 

Even in the great prophecy of resurrection in Daniel 12 Daniel saw that some would shine with the glory of the firmament as others would shine with the glory of the stars.

And many of those who are sleeping in the dust of the ground will awake, some to life eternal and some to reproach, to eternal contempt.

And those who have insight will shine like the shining of the heavenly expanse, and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars, forever and ever. (Dan. 12:2,3)

1.) Some are resurrected to contempt being damned.

2.) Others are resurrected to shine as the firmament - rewarded.

3.) Still others are resurrected to shine as the stars forever and ever - further rewarded.

My ground for believing that growth of God's life will effect the degree of glory in resurrection is derived from the varied glory of stars (1 Cor. 15) and the comparative varied glory of the firmament with the stars (Daniel 12) 

While we do not have ALL the details we are not left without some indication. 

The Apostle Paul sought through his utter absolute consecration to allow Christ the maximum growth in his being, "a better resurrection" and "out-resurrection" or outstanding resurrection. 

To know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,

If perhaps I may attain to the out-resurrection from the dead. (Phil.3:11)

εἴ πως καταντήσω εἰς τὴν ἐξανάστασιν τῶν νεκρῶν. 

We may ask - "Paul, you know that as a Christian you are going to be resurrected - period. Why are you seeking to attain what is freely the inevitable destiny of all believers?" 

The Apostle Paul knew he would enjoy the resurrection promised to all believers in Christ. But he sought to express his love to Christ by attaining the outstanding - out-resurrection of exemplary glory -  τὴν ἐξανάστασιν τῶν νεκρῶν.

Though in the eternal age all the Christians will enjoy an equal degree of splendorous glorified spirit - soul - and body, in the millennial kingdom there will be degrees of glory. And these degrees will be related to how much we allowed Christ's life to be formed in us in cooperation with His desire to grow within us. 

Paul knew this and sought to attain to the highest level possible of filling, saturation, permeation of his whole being with Christ as the lifegiving Spirit. 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2024 by Feedmysheep

[BornAgain490]

36 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

HI BornAgain,

`Saints` is a general word for God`s people -

1. before the cross - Old Testament saints.

2. In the Body of Christ.

3. God fearing saints in the trib.

4. God fearing saints in the millennium.

 

Note: they all do not have the same inheritance: some in the third heaven: some in the city coming down out of heaven, and some on the New Earth.

Hi. Marilyn.

Sorry sister, I'm not dispensational in my theology.  I think it's a man-made demonic induced deception on the Bible believing world. 

I know what the word "saint" means.  Thanks. 

All saints from before the cross of Christ and all saints after the cross of Christ are one body in Christ, fellowcitizens and heirs of the same promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. (Ephesians 2:19;  Galatians 3:29).

God has only ever had one plan of redemption, one good news, one people to redeem, and one eternal destination for His people.  

Thanks. 

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Feedmysheep said:

I don't want to waste time and energy on who asked who first. I am dealing with two main inquisitors - BornAgain490 and FreeGrace.  

FreeGrace, is this the question you wish me first to speak to?

<<<<Do you know when the second half of the 7 year Trib begins in Revelation?>>>>

Or was it about something else?

That is the question.  

[Feedmysheep]

35 minutes ago, Luther said:

And to be clear, what would be the scriptural basis for some believers to go up while others stay down? Just need a starting point to work from. Thank you. 

Greeting Luther.  A starting point for selective rapture? Indeed. 

At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.

Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (Matt. 24:40-42)

1.) The traditional incorrect view - The TWO mean a believer and an unbeliever. The believer is raptured and the nonbeliever is left.

2.) A more correct view - The TWO are two CHRISTIANS. Both going about their daily responsibilities. One watching to ABIDE in the Holy Spirit is taken. The other neglecting to develop a habit of abiding in the Spirit is left - TO BE TAKEN LATTER.

Selection in pre-tribulation rapture. Let's go on.

Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes.

1.) The traditional incorrect view - Jesus is telling the world in general to watch for their Lord to come.

2.) The more correct view - Jesus is telling HIS DISCIPLES who own Him as their Lord, to watch for His unannounced sudden snatching away of those watching to abide in the Spirit. 

This is not a watching of the sky. It is a watching according to too many exhortions in the New Testament to abide moment by moment with our hearts turned to the Lord Jesus, going about our daily mundane responsibilties with Him.

This is a good place to start.  Your thoughts? 

Edited December 28, 2024 by Feedmysheep

[BornAgain490]

9 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

1.) The traditional incorrect view - The TWO mean a believer and an unbeliever. The believer is raptured and the nonbeliever is left.

That is the dispensational view, not the traditional view.  I agree it is incorrect. 

The traditional view, which is the correct view, is that the one taken is the unbeliever, and the one left is the believer.  As Jesus explained in vv. 37-39 about the days of Noah, the ones taken were the unbelievers, while Noah and his family remained.  

[Marilyn C]

24 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

Hi. Marilyn.

Sorry sister, I'm not dispensational in my theology.  I think it's a man-made demonic induced deception on the Bible believing world. 

I know what the word "saint" means.  Thanks. 

All saints from before the cross of Christ and all saints after the cross of Christ are one body in Christ, fellowcitizens and heirs of the same promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. (Ephesians 2:19;  Galatians 3:29).

God has only ever had one plan of redemption, one good news, one people to redeem, and one eternal destination for His people.  

Thanks. 

So....why didn`t Jesus come in the first century as it would have stopped a lot of pain and suffering throughout the centuries?

And did God make an `oops` when He made Israel? 

[FreeGrace]

26 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

While we untangle what you claim you FIRST asked of me, I will respond to some thoughts . 

<<<Just because Paul used "firstfruits" in 1 Cor 15:23 to point to the fact that Jesus was the first human to receive a resurrection body is NO REASON to carry the idea of harvest into resurrection.>>>

The main reason for me speaking of firstfruits / harvest in resurrection in rapture is because Revelation chapter 14.   Revelation 14:1-5 is on the firstfruits taken to a heavenly mount Zion.

Why do you insert "heavenly" in v.1?  Zion literally refers to the city of Jerusalem.

26 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

And Revelation 14:14-16 is about the harvest resurrected and raptured to Christ who by that time is hovering near to the surface of the earth having come down from the third heavens.

There are no words that denote either resurrection or rapture.  With such symbolic or metaphoric words, one can pretty much claim anything they want to.

26 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

None of this does any damage to the term firstfruits being used elsewhere in Scripture to signify something else. ie. "the firstfruits, Christ" in 1 Cor. 15.

Well, that's pretty convenient.  Of course it does lots of damage.

26 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<Not "implanted" as a seed.  Please give up the focus on agriculture harvest being linked to resurrection.>>>

No. The growth of the implanted divine life of Christ culminating in human believers should be maintained.

Your focus is bizarre.  When a person believes in Christ, they are BORN AGAIN, not "planted" or "implanted", or ANYTHING relating to agriculture.

26 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

  What should be appreciated is that even in First Corinthians 15 Paul speaks of the quality of resurrection glory being influenced by the degree of saturation of the divine life.  For example:

But someone will say, How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come? Foolish man, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies; (v.35)

Where do you get "sasturation" when it isn't even in the whole chapter??  iow, why are you making up stuff?

26 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

The link between agricultural planting and growing is seen in death and resurrection.

No, it isn't.  Not even close.  But you surely want to see it.

26 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

And what you sow, you do not sow the body that will be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of some other of the rest. But God gives it a body even as He willed, and to each of the seeds its own body. (v.36) 

The analogy of planting for growth is used in God giving the resurrected body the degree of glory He wills.

Not at all.  Paul was referring to physical bodies here.  Not resurrection bodies.  And the verse you quoted was v.37, not v.36.  We know that from the words "what YOU sow".  We have nothing to do with receiving a resurrection body.  That is God's department.  All we can produce is human bodies.  

26 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

All flesh is not the same flesh, but one is of men, and another flesh is of cattle, and another is of birds, and another is of fish. (v.37)

Nope.  v.39.  Yes, there are differences between man, animals, birds and fish.

26 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

The anology of different kinds of flesh is used to point to different degrees of glory of resurrection bodies.

No it doesn't.

26 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly is one thing, and that of the earthly is another. (v.38)

Nope.  v.40

26 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Though we may understand Paul to be binary here - either you are a raised heavenly bodied person or a raised earthly bodied person, the analogy of the heavenly bodied resurrected persons varies as the heavenly bodies vary.

Paul was contrasting physical earthly bodies with resurrection heavenly bodies.  And nothing about agriculture .

26 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

There is another glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. (v.39)

Nope.  v.41

26 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 All resurrected saints at the end of the church age will not have the same degree of glory. But they will differ as star differs from star in glory.

The obvious difference is based on the reward that was earned, or lack of reward.

26 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 Even in the great prophecy of resurrection in Daniel 12 Daniel saw that some would shine with the glory of the firmament as others would shine with the glory of the stars.

And many of those who are sleeping in the dust of the ground will awake, some to life eternal and some to reproach, to eternal contempt.

And those who have insight will shine like the shining of the heavenly expanse, and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars, forever and ever. (Dan. 12:2,3)

Do you not understand that v.2 speaks of only two resurrections total; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.  Also, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15 indicate the very same thing.  So there CAN'T be multiple resurrections.  

26 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

My ground for believing that growth of God's life will effect the degree of glory in resurrection is derived from the varied glory of stars (1 Cor. 15) and the comparative varied glory of the firmament with the stars (Daniel 12)

"God's life" doesn't 'grow'.  God's life is eternal life.  Growth is not an issue.

26 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 The Apostle Paul sought through his utter absolute consecration to allow Christ the maximum growth in his being, "a better resurrection" and "out-resurrection" or outstanding resurrection.

How do you "allow Christ the maximum growth in his being"?  And neither does Christy 'grow' in a person.  I am quite puzzled by your strange statements.

26 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 To know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,

If perhaps I may attain to the out-resurrection from the dead. (Phil.3:11)

 "to the resurrection from the dead" This is an unusual compound term. It is found only here in the NT. It is literally "out of the dead into resurrection life." Paul has been discussing the intimate personal relationship between himself and the resurrected Christ. He longed for the end-time day when he, too, would experience physical resurrection as he already had experienced spiritual resurrection 

26 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

Though in the eternal age all the Christians will enjoy an equal degree of splendorous glorified spirit - soul - and body, in the millennial kingdom there will be degrees of glory. And these degrees will be related to how much we allowed Christ's life to be formed in us in cooperation with His desire to grow within us. 

Where does the Bible SAY that in the eternal state all believers will enjoy an equal degree of splendorous glrofied spirit/soul/body?  

The reward earned at the Judgment Seat of Christ will last forever.

[BornAgain490]

1 minute ago, Marilyn C said:

So....why didn`t Jesus come in the first century as it would have stopped a lot of pain and suffering throughout the centuries?

And did God make an `oops` when He made Israel? 

What did Jesus have to say about his coming?  No one but the Father, not even Jesus, knows of the day of His return.  

Do you know why God chose Israel?  God chose Israel to be a priestly nation, sanctified from the rest of the world, to bring forth the promised seed, the true Light, which is Jesus Christ, to be a light unto the nations of the world. 

Unsaved Jews are as lost and condemned as unsaved Gentiles. Jews need to receive Jesus Christ as Savior and acknowledge Jesus as Lord just like everyone else in order to be born again in Christ and eternally saved. 

There are some dispensationalists who deny these truths, which makes them false teachers and antichrists. 

[Marilyn C]

19 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

What did Jesus have to say about his coming?  No one but the Father, not even Jesus, knows of the day of His return.  

Do you know why God chose Israel?  God chose Israel to be a priestly nation, sanctified from the rest of the world, to bring forth the promised seed, the true Light, which is Jesus Christ, to be a light unto the nations of the world. 

Unsaved Jews are as lost and condemned as unsaved Gentiles. Jews need to receive Jesus Christ as Savior and acknowledge Jesus as Lord just like everyone else in order to be born again in Christ and eternally saved. 

There are some dispensationalists who deny these truths, which makes them false teachers and antichrists. 

Jesus is now at the right hand of the Father in the Godhead, so He does know now when He shall return to deliver Israel and judge the world system.

However, that is not what I was referring to. I meant `Why didn`t Jesus come to earth as a man in the first century?