1 Cor. 15:23 and Selective Resurrection

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

1.)  The woman who brought forth the man-child represents ALL God's people from the beginning of the Bible through to the end.

      Verses will be provided when I see interest shown. 

2.) The man-child's delivery means resurrection and rapture.

3.)  The man-child consists of saints from the OT and NT times who died for their faith before the GT.

4.)  The advent of their resurrection and rapture is the CAUSE and the CATALYST for the great tribulation to even begin.

5.)  These resurrected saints died prior to the GT time. And they are resurrected prior to the larger general resurrection after the GT.

 I will provide more detailed explanation in this thread if you stay tuned. 

 

All of these 5 points are just opinions.  He cannot prove any of his claims from Scripture.  His failure to recognize the "man-child" as THE God-man is quite unfortunate, and significantly reduces his credibility on all points.

[FreeGrace]

27 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

It is sad that such a crucial subject does not draw more response. Or perhaps the malady lies elsewhere. Let me venture an opinion.

Current Christian doctrine is that salvation is by faith. Being saved means going to heaven. By wresting 2nd Corinthians 5, a case is made for a spiritual body being put on in heaven. The rest of men go to hell, though the same people who tell this are not sure where hell is since the world is burned up. 1st Corinthians 15 is mostly ignored. This theory, sold mainly by the Roman Catholic Church during the so-called "dark-ages", is fraught with difficulties. But above these difficulties is a deep affront to Jehovah because he is deemed to have had a plan with man for the EARTH (Gen.1:26-28) and is forced to take a lessor and different outcome. 

For those who do believe in the resurrection, some issues confound, one of them being the theme of the OP - a split, or multiple resurrection. But with a little care the problem is quickly resolved. The first issue is to note that a split, or multiple resurrection is already a fact. By the time of our Lord's resurrection there had been at least 6 others - all separate events. They were; 1 at Elijah's time, 2 at Elisha's time, and 3 raised by Jesus. But immediately a difficulty arises. Noe of these seven resurrections, except Christ's, are called "the FIRST Resurrection". This term is used in Revelation 20 for martyrs who died and were only resurrected 2,000 years after Christ was. The problem is quickly solved.

The Greek word "protos" can mean BOTH FIRST in time and it can mean FIRST in rank or importance. Since the martyrs of Revelation 20 are resurrected approximately 2,700 years AFTER the child of Zarephath (1st Ki.17), the FIRST resurrection must mean "FIRST IN IMPORTANCE". It also means that Christ, 7th in TIME, cold be the FIRSTBORN of the dead. And in a matter of seconds we have laid the ground for MULTIPLE resurrections of DIFFERENT QUALITIES. But one more stumbling bloc must be removed. It is 1st Corinthians 15:22. It reads;

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

Now, at least one out of two Christians secretly read, " 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all Christians be made alive."

Because of the "heaven-hell" doctrine, the average Christian sees no purpose for the unbeliever to be resurrected. Hitler can roast forever. No need to give him a body. But that is not the point. The point is God made man a "LIVING soul" and death is His MORTAL (excuse the pun) ENEMY. It is not whether of not the person believed of not. It is a matter of God subduing ALL His enemies. So John 5 and Revelation 20 say;

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

7 And when the thousand years are expired, ... 11 And I saw a great white throne, ... 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God;

Now our set is complete. WE see MULTIPLE resurrections as a fact, Jesus being BOTH the seventh and the FIRST. We see men who are resurrected 2,700 years after the first resurrection, belong the the resurrection of IMPORTANCE. And then, after another 1,000 years, we see a general resurrection which was predicted by John 5. BUT ONE MORE resurrection adds the punchline. The Christian is resurrected supposedly BEFORE the Great Tribulation (Lk.21:35-36, Rev.3:10), but Israel are resurrected AFTER the great Tribulation (Dan.12:1-2). BOTH are Christ's! Jesus is KING of Israel and HEAD of the Church. Thus, even the resurrection of "THOSE WHO ARE HIS" is divided by TIME AND IMPORTANCE.

My only disagreement with this is the view that the 2 recorded OT dead bodies being "raised to life" and those Jesus and His disciples also "raised to life" (Lazarus, widow's son, the 'many' who came out of their graves at the crucifixion) were "resurrected".  Acts 26:23 plainly states that Jesus was the first to "rise from the dead".  Since there are recorded events of dead people being raised from the dead, Acts 26:23 obviously refers to Jesus receiving the FIRST glorified immortal body (resurrection body).  No one else who was raised from the dead received a glorified immortal body.  That means that all of them died again.  But all of them will receive their glorified immortal body "when He comes" at the Second Advent.  When all other saved people will receive theirs.

[AdHoc]

4 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

My only disagreement with this is the view that the 2 recorded OT dead bodies being "raised to life" and those Jesus and His disciples also "raised to life" (Lazarus, widow's son, the 'many' who came out of their graves at the crucifixion) were "resurrected".  Acts 26:23 plainly states that Jesus was the first to "rise from the dead".  Since there are recorded events of dead people being raised from the dead, Acts 26:23 obviously refers to Jesus receiving the FIRST glorified immortal body (resurrection body).  No one else who was raised from the dead received a glorified immortal body.  That means that all of them died again.  But all of them will receive their glorified immortal body "when He comes" at the Second Advent.  When all other saved people will receive theirs.

I think you maybe read my posting too fast. I covered multiple resurrections and though briefly, I covered resurrection of differing glory too. I would never blatantly contradict Hebrews 9:27. It is emphatic and there is no exception recorded. "Obviously" is quite the wrong word. The cause of death according to Romans  Chapter 5 is "sin" (singular) which the context - verses 12-17) use to describe Adam's transgression. For a resurrected person to die again would imply that it was God who imputed evil since death divorces us from the burden of Adam's transgression (Rom.6).

Any, and every man only dies once.

[Feedmysheep]

I wrote: 

<<<1.)  The woman who brought forth the man-child represents ALL God's people from the beginning of the Bible through to the end.>>>

 

  To understand the man-child, we first must see who this  woman is wh gives birth to him.

   She is not Mary giving birth to Jesus. That makes too much of Mary.

   She is not merely Israel.

 

    We can call her woman of universal LIGHT. For the sources of the light in the universe surround her. Let's use UBW to standfor Universal Bright Woman.

 

    And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon underneath her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

 

 1.) [C]lothed with the sun signifies the major portion of this woman is of the age of grace. The saints of the new testament age make up the majority of her being.  Before Christ came it was the dark night of the Old Testament time. When Christ came He came as the sun rising from on high. (Luke 1:78).  Most of her being is  from the New Testament age of grace. 

 

2.) [T]he moon underneath her feet represents signifies the saints of the age of the law. Before the age of grace there was the  OT time contained the law which is a kind of reflection of Christ as the moon shines not with its own light but reflects the sun. 

 

   The moon underneath her feet does not mean disrepect but subjection. Because of the grace of Christ the law of God is subject to the people of God. Hence the major part of the woman stands in grace with the law of the OT subject to her.

 

3.) The crown of twelve stars  on her head represent the patriarchs of the OT time before the law.  These are exalted as heroes of faith with the woman is crowned. Whereas the OT law is underneath her feet in subjection the patriarchs preceding the law are exalted as her crown.

 

The sign of the mother of the man-child is mean the totality of God's people on the earth from the patriarchs before the law, the saints of the age of the law, and the saints of the church age of grace.

 

The vision should instantly remind us of Joseph's vision of his family in Genesis 37:9. In Joseph's dream he saw the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars meaning God's elect upon e There the sun, moon, eleven stars plus Joseph himself stood for the totality of God's people on the earth.

 

Interpreting the Bible with the Bible the Universal Bright Woman (UBW) also stands for the totality of God's people from Old Testament times to the end of the New Testament church age. 

 

And she was with child, and she cried out, travailing in birth and being in pain to bring forth. (v.2)

The meaning is that among all of God's people throughout the ages there has been a crying out prayer to God that the stronger ones within the total body of God's people would be victorious in warfare againt the Devil. In all the ages God's people have petitioned God that stronger part of God's people would prevail over Satan who is always fighting against God's people.

 

The stronger part, the child to which she is in pain to deliver, is part of her. When you see the woman the man-child is within her. And the two are one until the man-child is brought out from her in resurrection. Then a distinction is manifest that some have become overcomers from among the majority of the weaker total body.

 

Woman stands for the  weaker visible here. And man-child stands for the stronger ones within the vaster majority of weaker ones. These have the brunt of experience in spiritual warfare. And Satan is ever and always on guard that this stronger remnant does not emmerge from the rest.

 

And another sign was seen in heaven; and behold, there was a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 

And his tail drags away the third part of the stars of heaven, and he cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bring forth, so that when she brings forth he might devour her child. (vs. 3,4)

 

Now we must go on patiently to see that the delivery of the hated man-child that Satan desires to kill is the resurrection and  rapture of this stronger part of the woman at beginning of the last 3.5 years of this present age. 

 

Edited January 2 by Feedmysheep

[Feedmysheep]

Revelation 12:5,6 -  And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

 

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Just before the last 3.5 years of this age a resurrection of these overcomers will take place.

We can be assured that they are resurrected because they DIED in past ages loving the Lord God even unto death.  That is some patriarchs before the law gave their lives. Some people of the age of the law also gave their lives. And some believers from the church age died for their consecration to God. 

Revelation 12:10,11 shows that they died - And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night. 

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death.

The plural pronouns "them, they, their," with "our brothers"  could refer to no one else in the chapter except the "man-child"  caught up to the throne of God in heaven.

"[E]ven unto death" proves that they died. And the delvery of the man-child signifies their resurrection.

 Christ's resurrection was spoken of as a BIRTH. 

Truly, truly, I say to you that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned into joy.

A woman, when she gives birth, has sorrow because her hour has come; but when she brings forth the little child, she no longer remembers the affliction because of the joy that a man has been born into the world.

Therefore you also now have sorrow; but I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and no one takes your joy away from you. (John 16:20-22)

Christ's who was declared the Son of God on the day of His resurrection. This was not the declaration of Christ as the Onlybegotten Son of God. At His resurrection He was proclaimed as the new born Firstborn Son of God. In other words He added  "Firstborn" to His  status on the day of His resurrection.

That God has fully fulfilled this promise to us their children in raising up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, “You are My Son; this day have I begotten You.”  And as to His having raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to corruption, (Acts 13:33,34a)

Clearly "this day" refers to the day of Christ's resurrection. At His resurrection He who was and still is the Only-begotten Son took on an additional honor of the Firstborn Son. 

The Apostle Paul said Christ was designated THIS Son of God at His resurrection in power.

[T]he gospel of God . . .   Concerning His Son, who came out of the seed of David according to the flesh, Who was designated the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness out of the resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord;

And so the resurrection of these overcomers is also the BIRTH of a new glorified humanity that is risen and caught up to heaven. And this resurrection is at the commencement of the 3.5 GT rather than at its conclusion.

 These points must be made before we go on to see what is the function of this collective entity of resurrected overcomers called the man-child in Revelation 12. 

 

 

Edited January 2 by Feedmysheep

[Feedmysheep]

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 AdHoc,

<<<Current Christian doctrine is that salvation is by faith. Being saved means going to heaven.>>>

   I'm glad you mentioned this.  The purpose of man's creation deeply involves to express God's image and exercise God's dominion over his creation. (Gen. 1:26)  But the prevailing lack of vision sees only that we need to be forgiven and taken someday to a happy place.  The man-child resurrected before the GT is a beachhead tactical recovery of a remnant back to God's original will to reign and express God in humanity.

   I pointed out that what the Lord Jesus was raised to do is followed by the collective resurrected man. This is spearheaded by the overcomers in Revelation 12. 

     Christ's reigning - And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations; and He will shepherd them with an iron rod; and He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. (Rev. 19:15)

    The collective man-child co-reigning - And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father;

 <<<For those who do believe in the resurrection, some issues confound, one of them being the theme of the OP - a split, or multiple resurrection. But with a little care the problem is quickly resolved. The first issue is to note that a split, or multiple resurrection is already a fact. By the time of our Lord's resurrection there had been at least 6 others - all separate events. They were; 1 at Elijah's time, 2 at Elisha's time, and 3 raised by Jesus.>>>

This is helpful.   Actually my OP is not too concerned for the resurrection of the unglorified. I am speaking to the resurrection of a remnanr collective who are raptured to the third heavens with some living overcomers who join them around the same time.  If you read my comments on Revelation 12 I am showing that before the greater number of believers are resurrected at the end of the GT, before its start a minority of overcomers from the previous ages, being resurrected and transfigured spearhead the being caught up to God's throne.     

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days. (Rev. 2:5,6)

  The result of this segment of the body of believers resurrected taken to God's throne is accompanied by the proclamation that the kingdom of God has come. (Rev. 12:10,11).

   Yet too many dear brothers seem to miss that this resurrection and rapture is the catalyst that triggers the good angels to obey the believers bidding and drive the accusing Satan down from the heavenlies. He is henceforth limited only to the earth's surface for the last three and one half years.     

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon warred and his angels. And they did not prevail, neither was their place found any longer in heaven. (vs. 7,8)

   Much of this escapes the church's attention today. They are more ocupied with forgiveness and being taken to a happy place. The time is come for Christians to see something of God's need and not only our need. God needs both among the living and among those departed of His people overcomers.  At least a critical mass of those who are more than conquerors to take the beachead of the earth as transfigured and glorified ones before the GT. 

    Herein is some resurrected and raptured before the 3.5 last years as opposed to the majority resurreted and rapture at the end of the 3.5 year great tribulation. 

So then "the firstruit [singular] Christ, then those who are Christ'sat His [parousia] coming"   entails  - those who are Christ's as overcomers before the tribulation and those who are made overcomers during the tribulation and the vaster majority who are saved yet not suited for spiritual warefare. 

   Incidently, the last time I checked the Greek it seems "the firstfruit, Christ" as in singular appears in my RcV Analinier. 

    I have noticed some English renderings which pluralize the firstfruit  others in the sigular.      

   Ie.  ESV- Christ the firstfruits,   YLT -  a first-fruit Christ, 
            WBT - Christ the first-fruits;  SLT -  the first fruit Christ; 
            MSB - Christ the firstfruits;     ANT -  Christ the first-fruit,
         You get the idea. 

       <<<The Greek word "protos" can mean BOTH FIRST in time and it can mean FIRST in rank or importance.>>>

   This is a very good point which I hope we can examine latter. I brought it up before in the thread Selective Rapture.    Let's come back more to it.   

 

Edited January 2 by Feedmysheep

[Feedmysheep]

16 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

All of these 5 points are just opinions.  He cannot prove any of his claims from Scripture.  His failure to recognize the "man-child" as THE God-man is quite unfortunate, and significantly reduces his credibility on all points.

You were already corrected  on this criticism. 

What Christ as the Head does is also what Christ dispensed into His overcomers do WITH Him. 

Christ -   And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations; and He will shepherd them with an iron rod; and He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. (Rev.19:15) 

The overcomers -  And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father; (Rev. 2:26,27) 

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev. 12:5)

 

Edited January 2 by Feedmysheep

[AdHoc]

12 minutes ago, Feedmysheep said:

 

My posting was rather general. I didn't want it to be too long. One scripture that really seals things is Philippians 3:9-12. In there, the subject is the same as 1st Thessalonians 4, resurrection and rapture. In 1st Thessalonians 4 the issue of rewards is not emphasized because Chapter 1 and 3 depict a near perfect Church. But in Philippians Paul addresses a perceived standard of maturity. So we have the once mentioned "out-resurrection" and the PRIZE of the "Upward-call" (Although I highly respect the KJV, the translators didn't help by rendering it "The High calling". It is corrected in the New King James to "Upward call".

Anyway, it was the "out-resurrection" that I wanted to address. This once off " EX-anastasis" (literally "resurrection out of resurrection") must be ATTAINED to. Thus, we have a mention of a resurrection that is later called "the First Resurrection" - a resurrection containing a reward - the Kingdom. In this short text, with Paul about 4 years from his martyrdom, we have a strong indication of selective resurrection. In 1st Corinthians we have the differing glories.

[Feedmysheep]

17 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 Acts 26:23 obviously refers to Jesus receiving the FIRST glorified immortal body (resurrection body).  No one else who was raised from the dead received a glorified immortal body.  That means that all of them died again.  But all of them will receive their glorified immortal body "when He comes" at the Second Advent.  When all other saved people will receive theirs.

What is not seen by you is that transfiguration of the body is influenced by transformation of the soul.

Your naive assumptiom is that the quality of every Christian's walk has nothing to do with the quality of their reward in the millennial kingdom, including the glory they bare in their body.

 There is the overcoming victorious sister or brother. There is the lukewarm saint. There is the repentant backslider. There is the unrepentant backslider. There is the severely immature fleshly Christian.  ALL will be resurrection. ALL will not have sifficient transformation in the soul. And this will effect the resurrection and transfiguration of the body.

 While we do not have all the details we have enough to know all those "who are Christ's at His coming" receive the same position of honor in the 1,000 year kingdom. 

 Why did the Apostle Paul seek to attain an outstanding resurrection? Your logic means there was no need for him to seek to attain such because all who are Christ's at His coming are resurrected exactly with the same glory. 

 Paul was not like you. He expected to GAIN, GAIN GAIN as much Christ as he could in order to attain an extra ordinary out-resurrection from the dead.  

. . . that I may gain Christ . . . 

If perhaps I may attain to the out-resurrection from the dead.

Not that I have already obtained or am already perfected, but I pursue, if even I may lay hold of that for which I also have been laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

Brothers, I do not account of myself to have laid hold; but one thing I do: Forgetting the things which are behind and stretching forward to the things which are before,

I pursue toward the goal for the prize to which God in Christ Jesus has called me upward. (See Phil. 3:8-14) 

 

Edited January 2 by Feedmysheep

[Feedmysheep]

27 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

.

 

<<<My posting was rather general. I didn't want it to be too long>>>

I know what you mean.

 <<< One scripture that really seals things is Philippians 3:9-12. In there, the subject is the same as 1st Thessalonians 4, resurrection and rapture. In 1st Thessalonians 4 the issue of rewards is not emphasized because Chapter 1 and 3 depict a near perfect Church.>>>

  I think that is a good way to put it.

   <<< But in Philippians Paul addresses a perceived standard of maturity. So we have the once mentioned "out-resurrection" and the PRIZE of the "Upward-call" (Although I highly respect the KJV, the translators didn't help by rendering it "The High calling". It is corrected in the New King James to "Upward call". >>>

  This is helpful too. 

<<<Anyway, it was the "out-resurrection" that I wanted to address. This once off " EX-anastasis" (literally "resurrection out of resurrection") must be ATTAINED to. Thus, we have a mention of a resurrection that is later called "the First Resurrection" - a resurrection containing a reward - the Kingdom. In this short text, with Paul about 4 years from his martyrdom, we have a strong indication of selective resurrection. In 1st Corinthians we have the differing glories. >>> 

 I am sorry that FreeGrace has succumbed to a "lol"  kind of mockery.  Your grasp of what I have been trying to explain is refreshing. And I may like to hear your thoughts latter on some things.