" Replacement Theology"

[Retrobyter]

10 minutes ago, A Freeman said:

Unless a gentile (foreigner) is grafted into Israel (the people not the counterfeit-Jewish state in the Middle East) they have no hope of being redeemed (according to Christ, in His Revelation to John):

Revelation 7:4-9

7:4 And I HEARD the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
7:5 Of the tribe of Judah [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:6 Of the tribe of Asher [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Naphtali [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasseh [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:8 Of the tribe of Zebulun [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph/Ephraim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could count (which is why he was told in verse 4), of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the Throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
 

Shabbat shalom, @A Freeman.

One must not over-generalize the elements of Scripture. If one reads on, one will find, ...

Revelation 14:1-5 (KJV)

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven (Greek: ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ = "out of-the sky"), as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder [a PA system]: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps [stringed instruments]: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth (Greek: οἱ ἠγορασμένοι ἀπὸ τῆς γῆς = "the-ones reclaimed from the ground"). 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

This is a CHOIR! It's not all who are selected from the children of Israel! It's all who could sing well enough to join! Furthermore, they are DEDICATED to the music because they are virgins, and thus, they have no spouses to please and can focus on being with the King wherever He goes.

10 minutes ago, A Freeman said:

Further yet, after thousands of years, with the Bible having been translated into many of Earth's languages and delivered all over the world, no one has any excuse anymore to pretend that God is unjust or unfair, i.e. God's Law somehow doesn't apply equally to everyone, exactly as He told us:

Deuteronomy 29:9-15

29:9 Keep therefore the words of this Covenant, and DO them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do.
29:10 Ye stand this day all of you before the "I AM" your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, [with] all the men of Israel,
29:11 Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that [is] in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water:
29:12 That thou shouldest enter into Covenant with the "I AM" thy God, and into His Oath, which the "I AM" thy God maketh with thee this day:
29:13 That He may establish thee to day for a people unto Himself, and [that] He may be unto thee a God, as He hath said unto thee, and as He hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob/Israel.
29:14 Neither with you only do I make this Covenant and this Oath;
29:15 But with [him] that standeth here with us this day before the "I AM" our God, and also with [him] that [is] not here with us this day [thy children, in PERPETUITY]:

One also needs to remember (or learn for the first time) that the Law is there to show us all that NO ONE can keep the Law! That is its true purpose. Paul said,

Galatians 3:1-29 (KJV)

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain.

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was "accounted to him for righteousness" (Genesis 15:6). 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], "In thee shall all nations be blessed" (Genesis 12:3). 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, "Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them" (Deuteronomy 27:26). 11 But that NO MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW IN THE SIGHT OF GOD, [it is] evident: for, "The just shall live by faith" (Habakkuk 2:4). 12 And the law is not of faith: but, "The man that doeth them shall live in them" (Leviticus 18:5).

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, "Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree" (Deuteronomy 21:23): 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though [it be] but a man's covenant, yet [if it be] confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, "And to seeds," as of many; but as of one, "And to thy seed," (Genesis 12:7) which is Christ. 17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, THE LAW, which was four hundred and thirty years after, CANNOT DISANNUL, THAT IT SHOULD MAKE THE PROMISE OF NONE EFFECT. 18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by PROMISE.

19 WHEREFORE THEN [SERVETH] THE LAW? It was added because of TRANSGRESSIONS, till "the seed" should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one.

{Which means, that God is one party in the mediation, making US the second party.}

21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for IF there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our SCHOOLMASTER [to bring us] unto Christ, that WE MIGHT BE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a SCHOOLMASTER. 

26 For ye are all the children of God BY FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to THE PROMISE.

This whole chapter is a contrast between the Law and the Promise! The Law simply taught us that "NO ONE can keep the Law!" We must come to God through FAITH in His promise! We TRUST God to keep His promise!

10 minutes ago, A Freeman said:

The Gospel (Good News) Truth is each of us have this final opportunity to come to our senses and obey God and His Law ONLY to show our love and appreciation for Christ's Sacrifice (and the sacrifices by all of the prophets before Him). And to prove that our love for our neighbors (everyone else on Earth) is genuine.

So, it is no wonder that this definiton of the "Gospel Truth" is insufficient. While we know that ...

Rom 7:7-13 (KJV)

7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, "Thou shalt not covet" (Exodus 20:17). 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without (outside of) the law sin [was] dead. 9 For I was alive without (outside of) the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

{This is talking about a child's innocence.}

10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto DEATH! 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it SLEW [me]! 12 Wherefore THE LAW [IS] HOLY, AND THE COMMANDMENT HOLY, AND JUST, AND GOOD.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But SIN, that it might appear sin, working DEATH in me by that which is good; that SIN by the commandment might become EXCEEDING SINFUL.

... is true, it is also true that ...

Colossians 2:6-15 (KJV)

6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the FAITH, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, HAVING FORGIVEN YOU ALL TRESPASSES; 14 BLOTTING OUT THE HANDWRITING OF ORDINANCES THAT WAS AGAINST US, WHICH WAS CONTRARY TO US, AND TOOK IT OUT OF THE WAY, NAILING IT TO HIS CROSS; 15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

So, the Law is good, but we ALL being sinners are only DOOMED BY THE LAW! 

BUT, through the FINISHED work of the Messiah upon the cross,He has FORGIVEN US ALL TRESPASSES against that Law!

My favorite passage in the Bible is ...

2 Corinthians 5:20-21 (KJV)

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he (God) hath made him (Christ) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The word translated as "be ... reconciled" is καταλλάγητε (katallageete) which is the aorist tense, imperative mood, passive voice of καταλλάσσω (katallassoo):

G2644 καταλλάσσω katallássō, kat-al-las'-so; from G2596 and G236; to change mutually, i.e. (figuratively) to compound a difference:
—reconcile.

The main point of the Outline of Biblical Usage gives us:

I. to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value.

Therefore, it means "to exchange places mutually" with another.

So, in verse 20, where Paul said, "be ye reconciled to God," he meant "(you) exchange places mutually to God." This is accomplished in the exchange seen in verse 21: He (God) hath made Him (Christ) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. So, the Messiah (Christ) became our sin on our behalf and died AS OUR SIN upon the cross. And, in the process, He made it possible for us to become the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD found within the Messiah. THAT is the "GREAT EXCHANGE!" Now, when God looks at us, He NO LONGER sees our sin, but He sees US as HIS OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS found in His Son! We become a TRIBUTE - a TROPHY - to Him! And, He is free to "declare us to be righteous," because our sin debt is PAID IN FULL through His Son's Sacrifice!

So, this is why Paul also said to the Romans,

Romans 3:21-26 (KJV)

21 But now the righteousness of God without (outside of) the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

But, the LAW IS GOOD! So, we don't keep the Law to be justified by God; we keep the Law (which is now written in our hearts) BECAUSE God has justified us through His Son! We keep His Law now BECAUSE we LOVE HIM and because WE WANT TO PLEASE HIM! We KEEP His Law BECAUSE we are THANKFUL FOR HIS FORGIVENESS!

Don't get the cart before the horse!

[A Freeman]

12 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, @A Freeman.

One must not over-generalize the elements of Scripture. If one reads on, one will find, ...

Revelation 14:1-5 (KJV)

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven (Greek: ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ = "out of-the sky"), as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder [a PA system]: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps [stringed instruments]: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth (Greek: οἱ ἠγορασμένοι ἀπὸ τῆς γῆς = "the-ones reclaimed from the ground"). 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

This is a CHOIR! It's not all who are selected from the children of Israel! It's all who could sing well enough to join! Furthermore, they are DEDICATED to the music because they are virgins, and thus, they have no spouses to please and can focus on being with the King wherever He goes.

One also needs to remember (or learn for the first time) that the Law is there to show us all that NO ONE can keep the Law! That is its true purpose. Paul said,

Galatians 3:1-29 (KJV)

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain.

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was "accounted to him for righteousness" (Genesis 15:6). 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], "In thee shall all nations be blessed" (Genesis 12:3). 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, "Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them" (Deuteronomy 27:26). 11 But that NO MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW IN THE SIGHT OF GOD, [it is] evident: for, "The just shall live by faith" (Habakkuk 2:4). 12 And the law is not of faith: but, "The man that doeth them shall live in them" (Leviticus 18:5).

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, "Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree" (Deuteronomy 21:23): 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though [it be] but a man's covenant, yet [if it be] confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, "And to seeds," as of many; but as of one, "And to thy seed," (Genesis 12:7) which is Christ. 17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, THE LAW, which was four hundred and thirty years after, CANNOT DISANNUL, THAT IT SHOULD MAKE THE PROMISE OF NONE EFFECT. 18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by PROMISE.

19 WHEREFORE THEN [SERVETH] THE LAW? It was added because of TRANSGRESSIONS, till "the seed" should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one.

{Which means, that God is one party in the mediation, making US the second party.}

21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for IF there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our SCHOOLMASTER [to bring us] unto Christ, that WE MIGHT BE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a SCHOOLMASTER. 

26 For ye are all the children of God BY FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to THE PROMISE.

This whole chapter is a contrast between the Law and the Promise! The Law simply taught us that "NO ONE can keep the Law!" We must come to God through FAITH in His promise! We TRUST God to keep His promise!

So, it is no wonder that this definiton of the "Gospel Truth" is insufficient. While we know that ...

Rom 7:7-13 (KJV)

7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, "Thou shalt not covet" (Exodus 20:17). 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without (outside of) the law sin [was] dead. 9 For I was alive without (outside of) the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

{This is talking about a child's innocence.}

10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto DEATH! 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it SLEW [me]! 12 Wherefore THE LAW [IS] HOLY, AND THE COMMANDMENT HOLY, AND JUST, AND GOOD.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But SIN, that it might appear sin, working DEATH in me by that which is good; that SIN by the commandment might become EXCEEDING SINFUL.

... is true, it is also true that ...

Colossians 2:6-15 (KJV)

6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the FAITH, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, HAVING FORGIVEN YOU ALL TRESPASSES; 14 BLOTTING OUT THE HANDWRITING OF ORDINANCES THAT WAS AGAINST US, WHICH WAS CONTRARY TO US, AND TOOK IT OUT OF THE WAY, NAILING IT TO HIS CROSS; 15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

So, the Law is good, but we ALL being sinners are only DOOMED BY THE LAW! 

BUT, through the FINISHED work of the Messiah upon the cross,He has FORGIVEN US ALL TRESPASSES against that Law!

My favorite passage in the Bible is ...

2 Corinthians 5:20-21 (KJV)

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he (God) hath made him (Christ) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The word translated as "be ... reconciled" is καταλλάγητε (katallageete) which is the aorist tense, imperative mood, passive voice of καταλλάσσω (katallassoo):

G2644 καταλλάσσω katallássō, kat-al-las'-so; from G2596 and G236; to change mutually, i.e. (figuratively) to compound a difference:
—reconcile.

The main point of the Outline of Biblical Usage gives us:

I. to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value.

Therefore, it means "to exchange places mutually" with another.

So, in verse 20, where Paul said, "be ye reconciled to God," he meant "(you) exchange places mutually to God." This is accomplished in the exchange seen in verse 21: He (God) hath made Him (Christ) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. So, the Messiah (Christ) became our sin on our behalf and died AS OUR SIN upon the cross. And, in the process, He made it possible for us to become the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD found within the Messiah. THAT is the "GREAT EXCHANGE!" Now, when God looks at us, He NO LONGER sees our sin, but He sees US as HIS OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS found in His Son! We become a TRIBUTE - a TROPHY - to Him! And, He is free to "declare us to be righteous," because our sin debt is PAID IN FULL through His Son's Sacrifice!

So, this is why Paul also said to the Romans,

Romans 3:21-26 (KJV)

21 But now the righteousness of God without (outside of) the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

But, the LAW IS GOOD! So, we don't keep the Law to be justified by God; we keep the Law (which is now written in our hearts) BECAUSE God has justified us through His Son! We keep His Law now BECAUSE we LOVE HIM and because WE WANT TO PLEASE HIM! We KEEP His Law BECAUSE we are THANKFUL FOR HIS FORGIVENESS!

Don't get the cart before the horse!

Peace to you as well this Sabbath day.

It's understood that religious teachers and gurus have taught the things that you are repeating to others, and that people have believed them. But that doesn't make any of it true/Biblical.

Revelation 14 is very obviously referring to the same 144,000 referenced in Revelation 7:4-9, who will be redeemed from the Earth. The same 144,000 that will learn to overcome their "self" (Rev. 2:7; 2:11; 2:17; 2:26-28; 3:5; 3:12; 3:21; 21:7), learning to crucify it DAILY exactly as Christ teaches (and as both Paul and the Koran confirm (Matt. 10:38; Matt. 16:24-26; Mark 8:34; Luke 9:23; Luke 14:26-27; Thomas 6:9; Gal. 2:20; Sura 6:162; Sura 92:18-21).

Until one actually DOES what Christ teaches, beginning with being born again from above (from God) -- and thus KNOWING that God and His Law are PERFECT and given to us for our individual and collective benefit -- they will continue to espouse nonsensical religious traditions, doctrines, rites, rituals and superstitions, which make The Law/Commandments of God of no effect (Matt. 15:3; 9).

God isn't an idiot, and most certainly didn't give us a law that we couldn't keep, so that He could then punish us for not keeping it. WITH God anyone can and MUST keep The Law (Matt. 19:26).

Revelation 14:1-5

14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the Mount Sion, and WITH him (Matt. 12:30) an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many "waters" (Rev. 1:10-18; Rev 17:15), and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
14:3 And they sung as it were a New Song (Isaiah 42:10) before the Throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that "Song" except the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the Earth.
14:4 These are they which were not corrupted by women; for they are pure. These are they which follow the Lamb wheresoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb (obeying God NOT women).
14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the Throne of God.

Revelation 15:3 And they sing the "Song of Moses" (Old Covenant - Deut. 31) the servant of God, AND the "Song of the Lamb" (New Covenant), saying, Great and marvellous [are] Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] Thy Ways, Thou King of the holy people.

The "New Song" = the "Song of Moses" + the "Song of the Lamb.

The issue of the priestly ordinances (e.g. animal sacrifice), which were done away with at the cross, will be addressed in a separate post.

[Retrobyter]

On 2/15/2025 at 10:59 AM, A Freeman said:

Peace to you as well this Sabbath day.

It's understood that religious teachers and gurus have taught the things that you are repeating to others, and that people have believed them. But that doesn't make any of it true/Biblical.

Shalom, @A Freeman.

Not so, friend. I can show book, chapter, and verse for what I've claimed as true. The words are certainly biblical, and that in itself makes them true.

On 2/15/2025 at 10:59 AM, A Freeman said:

Revelation 14 is very obviously referring to the same 144,000 referenced in Revelation 7:4-9, who will be redeemed from the Earth. The same 144,000 that will learn to overcome their "self" (Rev. 2:7; 2:11; 2:17; 2:26-28; 3:5; 3:12; 3:21; 21:7), learning to crucify it DAILY exactly as Christ teaches (and as both Paul and the Koran confirm (Matt. 10:38; Matt. 16:24-26; Mark 8:34; Luke 9:23; Luke 14:26-27; Thomas 6:9; Gal. 2:20; Sura 6:162; Sura 92:18-21).

The Qur'an?! That is NOT the Word of God. It was an attempt to control and subjugate the ones gullible enough (or cowed enough by fear) to listen, but Paul himself taught,

Galatians 1:8 (KJV)

8 But though we, or AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

And, one will find this in history:

"The Quran, revealed in the 7th century AD by a man who claimed angelic visitation, lacks verifiable evidence. Contrastingly, the Bible, written between 1400 BC and AD 95, predates the Quran by centuries and was widely distributed before Muhammad's time." (MadraSatelQuran.com on "Is the Quran older than the Bible?")

We also learn,

"The Prophet Muhammad disseminated the Koran in a piecemeal and gradual manner from AD610 to 632, the year in which he passed away. The evidence indicates that he recited the text and scribes wrote down what they heard." (By Behnam Sadeghi, Stanford University for the BBC, July 23, 2015.)

Therefore, the Qur'an was begun 515 years AFTER the Bible was finished!

The Word of God says,

Proverbs 30:4-6 (KJV)

4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what [is] his name, and what [is] his son's name, if thou canst tell? 5 Every word of God [is] pure: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

We also read this:

Psalm 119:89-96 (KJV)

89 לְ 

For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
90 Thy faithfulness [is] unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.
91 They continue this day according to thine ordinances: for all [are] thy servants.
92 Unless thy law [had been] my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction.
93 I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me (brought me to life).
94 I [am] thine, save me; for I have sought thy precepts.
95 The wicked have waited for me to destroy me: [but] I will consider thy testimonies.
96 I have seen an end of all perfection: [but] thy commandment [is] exceeding broad.

So, the Bible ALONE is the Word of God.

On 2/15/2025 at 10:59 AM, A Freeman said:

Until one actually DOES what Christ teaches, beginning with being born again from above (from God) -- and thus KNOWING that God and His Law are PERFECT and given to us for our individual and collective benefit -- they will continue to espouse nonsensical religious traditions, doctrines, rites, rituals and superstitions, which make The Law/Commandments of God of no effect (Matt. 15:3; 9).

God isn't an idiot, and most certainly didn't give us a law that we couldn't keep, so that He could then punish us for not keeping it. WITH God anyone can and MUST keep The Law (Matt. 19:26).

The point of Scripture which Paul wrote shows that we CANNOT keep God's Law! Consider: God said,

Isaiah 46:8-10 (KJV)

8 "Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors. 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 DECLARING THE END FROM THE BEGINNING, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND, AND I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE:"

YHWH God not only KNOWS the end from the beginning, He DECLARED it from the beginning, meaning that He SET IT ALL INTO MOTION! James also said,

James 2:1-13 (KJV)

1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. 2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; 3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: 4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? 5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? 6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? 7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" (Leviticus 19:18), ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, HE IS GUILTY OF ALL. 11 For he that said, "Do not commit adultery" (Exodus 20:14), said also, "Do not kill" (Exodus 20:13). Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

And, one cannot go just by the Ten Commandments, for there were 613 commandments, and many of those cannot be kept today because there is no Temple in Jerusalem today! 

On 2/15/2025 at 10:59 AM, A Freeman said:

Revelation 14:1-5

14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the Mount Sion, and WITH him (Matt. 12:30) an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many "waters" (Rev. 1:10-18; Rev 17:15), and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
14:3 And they sung as it were a New Song (Isaiah 42:10) before the Throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that "Song" except the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the Earth.
14:4 These are they which were not corrupted by women; for they are pure. These are they which follow the Lamb wheresoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb (obeying God NOT women).
14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the Throne of God.

Revelation 15:3 And they sing the "Song of Moses" (Old Covenant - Deut. 31) the servant of God, AND the "Song of the Lamb" (New Covenant), saying, Great and marvellous [are] Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] Thy Ways, Thou King of the holy people.

The "New Song" = the "Song of Moses" + the "Song of the Lamb."

The issue of the priestly ordinances (e.g. animal sacrifice), which were done away with at the cross, will be addressed in a separate post.

These are not necessarily the SAME SONG! How many songs do YOU sing in your services? We typically have THREE songs in our Sunday morning service. Why can't this choir have three DIFFERENT songs to sing?

The Song of Moses was recorded in Exodus 15 and repeated in Deuteronomy 31 and 32. The children of Israel sang this song after the defeat of Pharoah and his army in the crossing of the Red Sea.

The Song of the Lamb would have been written after the Lamb was slain (unless it's within the prophets). It was probably sung during John's time.

The New Song, may not be written until the 144,000 are selected to sing.

Secondly, the "priestly ordinances" regarding animal sacrifice were NOT "done away" at all! Many Christians feel this way, but the truth is that the animal sacrifices were how the Levi'iym were FED! They are found within the prophecy of Y'chezk'eel (Ezekiel)! It was a COOK-OUT, and the animals AND THE VEGETABLES brought to the Tabernacle and later to the Temple were given as a portion for the Levites and priests to eat. After all, the service to YHWH Elohiym was THEIR inheritance!

The meat being "sodden" was boiled, much as in a BEEF STEW! I don't know whether they had potatoes, but leeks and onions are roots, and they may have consumed other roots, as well. Within the Passover seders, many Jews today will use horseradishes as the "bitter herbs" in the ceremony.

[EddieM]

On 1/5/2025 at 3:35 PM, Michael37 said:

There is a branch of Biblical Theology known as Israelology. I recall the late Chuck Missler using the term. I've had some instruction about it as follows:

From my notes:

The Book of Revelation, the final book in the New Testament, provides a vivid and symbolic portrayal of the end times. The depiction of Israel in Revelation is deeply intertwined with themes of prophecy, eschatology, and the ultimate fulfillment of God's promises.

I take Revelation the same way I take any other book, the literal interpretation method. I only take something "symbolic" if the literal method is obviously not the intent of the author. For example, Paul used the allegorical method in a passage, but he warned the readers that he was now not using the literal method, but the allegorical method.

For example, I think there is only 1 number in Revelation that is not to be taken literally. The beast mentioned in Revelation was actually what John saw. I always start with the literal interpretation method, if the context is not literal then I will ask myself is this metaphorical or symbolism. Daniel can be looked at to assist John in its proper interpretation. Daniel saw beasts also, but he further explain what/who the beast is.

 

[EddieM]

On 1/5/2025 at 8:07 PM, Michael37 said:

You asked: "Why this belief that God has something yet to promise National Israel?"

The answer is found in Revelation, which is really good.

All the promises where given in the OT for the Nation of Israel. During the Tribulation (the resumption of the Jewish Dispensation) various promises will be fulfilled, and of course during the Millennial Reign of Christ Israel will be God's possession living in their Nation's entire boundaries.

[FriendofJonathan]

On 1/5/2025 at 1:42 PM, Luther said:

Ephesians 3:21

Unto Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

The " church by Jesus Christ" includes  "that great cloud of witnesses" in the Old Testament, saved by faith ( Hebrews 11),  " Throughout ALL AGES". 

Up until the last 150 years, there was never talk of a " replacement" of anyone. The eternal body of Christ was always understood to include many of those from the Nation of Israel, but never the whole nation. That teaching is a very new one in the scope of church history. 

The " great nation" that comes from Abraham ( Genesis 12:2) is the foreshadowing of the seed of Christ 

Galatians 3:16

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

If we are in Christ, then we are the  "spiritual" seed of Abraham, the " father of us all" ( who I would consider a picture of God Himself):

Romans 4:16

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,"

The Nation of Israel strived to become right with God through the law, and through their disobedience and perversion of it  (by their own traditions),  They perished. The only promises God has now for any nation is the " Holy nation of those called out of darkness"              (1 Peter 2:9). 

Did you know that God fulfilled his promise of a land inheritance to National Israel about 3200 years ago?

Joshua 21:43-45

And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

[44]And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

[45]There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

So this is God's Word, which is the final Word. So what happened?  Why this belief that God has something yet to promise National Israel? " All came to pass". 

I believe I know what happened. The churches of our day have fallen prey to the indoctrination from the commentary of the Scofield Bible over 100 years ago. I call it the " Scofield spell". 

Of course many are going to disagree with me. I hope that this forum will allow the exchange of controversial beliefs. I always intend to be respectful of what others believe. Maybe this is the first time someone is hearing about this. There is a lot to look into, because the very nature of what's going on today before our eyes is the result of an extreme effort to subvert classical church/ Bible  teachings. 

No doubt the writings of John Nelson Darby, C. I. Scofield, Charles Larkin, and many others has poisoned the minds of many who claim to be faithful followers of Christ into believing that God has two or more gospels, two or more plans of redemption, two peoples to redeem, and two eternal destinations for His redeemed. 

Their false teachings have caused division and strife, many of whom in the dispensational camps go so far as to call those that disagree with their premillenial, pretrib rapture, dispensational theology, children of the devil.  And they convince those that follow their teachings, that those who did but left, were led away by Satan, wrongfully using 1 John 2:19 to condemn those that left their dispensational teaching. 

Pray to God that their eyes be opened to the truth of scripture that God has only one gospel, one plan of redemption, one people to redeem, and one eternal destination for His redeemed. Amen. 

 

 

[Luther]

4 hours ago, FriendofJonathan said:

No doubt the writings of John Nelson Darby, C. I. Scofield, Charles Larkin, and many others has poisoned the minds of many who claim to be faithful followers of Christ into believing that God has two or more gospels, two or more plans of redemption, two peoples to redeem, and two eternal destinations for His redeemed. 

Their false teachings have caused division and strife, many of whom in the dispensational camps go so far as to call those that disagree with their premillenial, pretrib rapture, dispensational theology, children of the devil.  And they convince those that follow their teachings, that those who did but left, were led away by Satan, wrongfully using 1 John 2:19 to condemn those that left their dispensational teaching. 

Pray to God that their eyes be opened to the truth of scripture that God has only one gospel, one plan of redemption, one people to redeem, and one eternal destination for His redeemed. Amen. 

 

 

Amen. That's why we're talking about it. Once Our Lord comes the day of salvation is over. Our world is controlled by the children of the devil who, in the end want to lead mankind to the " light bearer". But only Jesus Christ is that true light. 

John 12:46 KJV

I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

[Luther]

On 2/23/2025 at 3:12 PM, EddieM said:

All the promises where given in the OT for the Nation of Israel. During the Tribulation (the resumption of the Jewish Dispensation) various promises will be fulfilled, and of course during the Millennial Reign of Christ Israel will be God's possession living in their Nation's entire boundaries.

You said: "All the promises where given in the OT for the Nation of Israel. "

Congratulations. You ( as a Christian) just eliminated your spiritual ancestry in one fell swoop.

My friend, if you interpret everything literal in scripture you are missing the whole reason why God wrote the Bible for His children. While  it's true that we can learn historical and moral truth, ultimately it's our "guidebook" to heaven, containing metaphorical, allegorical and parabolic language, for those with eyes to see. 

 

[EddieM]

11 hours ago, Luther said:

You said: "All the promises where given in the OT for the Nation of Israel. "

Congratulations. You ( as a Christian) just eliminated your spiritual ancestry in one fell swoop.

My friend, if you interpret everything literal in scripture you are missing the whole reason why God wrote the Bible for His children. While  it's true that we can learn historical and moral truth, ultimately it's our "guidebook" to heaven, containing metaphorical, allegorical and parabolic language, for those with eyes to see. 

 

Accusing me of using the literal interpretation method is one of the greatest compliment you could pay me.

[Luther]

On 3/3/2025 at 6:11 PM, EddieM said:

Accusing me of using the literal interpretation method is one of the greatest compliment you could pay me.

Ephesians 1:18 KJV

The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,