Resurrection as Birth

[Feedmysheep]

4 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

And this is the part that many don't realize - the expansion of the Firstborn through Christ in us, the only hope of glory!

Yes. We see Christ leading many sons into the glorious expression of the Divine Being. He took the lead. His full salvation enables we the saved to follow Him. 

 . . .  in leading many sons into glory,  (Heb. 2:10b) 

 He is a glorified man among many glorifed men and women who are His partners. 

For to which of the angels has He ever said, “You are My Son; this day have I begotten You”? And again, “I will be a Father to Him, and He will be a Son to Me”?

He 1:6And when He brings again the Firstborn into the inhabited earth, He says, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

He 1:7And of the angels He says, “Who makes His angels winds and His ministers a flame of fire”;

He 1:8But of the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

He 1:9You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of exultant joy above Your partners”;

 And He is the uncreated eternal God, the Creator who is now the God-man and Elder Brother to all these partners, these sons.

He 1:10 And, “You in the beginning, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands;

He 1:11 They will perish, but You remain perpetually; and they all will become old like a garment,

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

<<<You have your work cut out for you. There is a New Creation in Colossians, based on resurrection.>>>

Amen. That is what the resurrection of Christ brings into being - a new creation.

<<<All men join in this because all men are to be resurrected (1 Cor.15:22, John.5:28-99).>>>

Let's check. 1 Cor. 15:22 - For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

                   Christ is the second man, the last Adam who became a divine life giving Spirit to create in Himself a new divinized humanity. That is people whose destiny in Christ is to be filled with God's life - God-men. 

Of course only those resurrected with the indwelling life giving pneumatic Christ enter into this new "species"of divinized human beings. 

You made some crucial statements there that do not show the wording of the verses. 1st Corinthians 15:22 says "ALL" men.  There is no special class mentioned. If there is a special class the they are found in the next verse - verses 23 - "Those that are His". So there is a class of men who are not His. But they are resurrected a thousand year later because verse 24 onward says that Christ must REIGN until all enemies are subdued.

2 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Let's also see John 5:28-29 - Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all in the tombs will hear His voice And will come forth: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

  All the dead will come out of death. But only the ones who have done the good of receiving Christ as Lord and Savior are those resurrected to the divine and eternal life. The unbelievers are resrurrected to eternal judgment. 

 The ones in verse 29 raised to "the resurrection of life" are in the tombs or in Hades physically dead yet with God's life already in their human spirit.

I think that there is a difficulty. The words "done good" are works. "Done" is past tense of "do" - an act of effort. To obtain eternal life we have to BELIEVE. And this is born out in the inspired record. Revelation 20 calls them "the rest of thr dead". Your footnote says that believers will be resurrected before the millennium. The White Throne resurrection would have no Christians in it.  They are resurrected "when He comes".

But it's easy to pick out points and criticize. So let me give my appreciation of this complicated matter for your consideration.

Romans 5:12-17 gives the reason that we all face death. It is because we inherit Adam's fallen nature. The Bible calls this "sin" (singular). Even though we had no part in this transgression, we inherit "sin" because of Genesis 1:11-12 - God's Law of KINDS. If a kind has seed within itself, it will produce the same kind. The result of "sin" (singular) is death (Rom.6:23). When John Baptist saw Jesus he proclaims Jesus as the Lamb of God "Who takes away the SIN (singular) of the world". This is different to 1st John 2:2. There, our Lord dies for the SINS (plural) of the world. These are the "trespasses" that are the fruit of a "sin-nature". The wages of "trespasses" is "The Second Death".

The big difference is that the Lamb of God pays the price for Adam causing physical death. By dying as the Lamb of God, Christ allows God JUDICIALLY to annul physical death. I gives God lawful permission to RAISE EVERY MAN. It is the medicne for physical death. It allows God to defeat death - His last enemy. So John 5:28-29 and 1st Corinthians 15:22 really mean ALL men. But that does not mean that the guilty will escape. They are raised to JUDGEMENT for what they DID - their trespasses. Hitler will be resurrected because of the Lamb's Work, but face the Lamb Who will judge him for what he DID - his trespasses.

Now, turning to the New Creature, Romans 8 tells us that the WHOLE of creation GROANS. This is because of certain sins like shedding innocent blood. Idolatry is another. Jesus payed for restoration and lifting of the curses, but it is up to the kings of the millennium to see that these sins are stopped or met with justice. So in His death and resurrection, Christ initiates the New Creation which has no death. This New Creation includes the dead. So ALL men will be released from the bondage of death. But this does not mean that Herod will not burn for ordering the deaths of infants in and around Bethlehem. It simply means that he goes to the Lake of Fire ALIVE.

The context is everything. Christ is the first grain of Wheat. In John 12:24 he brings forth many of the same KIND. But in Colossians 1 He is CREATOR not Wheat. The first creation came out of His mouth, and he uses His mouth for the New Creature. In Colossians He is not the Lamb. He is the "Life-Giving SPIRIT". In Romans 8 He is revealed as BEING RAISED because the SPIRIT is the center and context. But in John He is the one on the pole "who will draw ALL men to Himself." (Jn.3 and Nicodemus). In John 3 it is not a matter of trespasses. It is a matter of a poison INSIDE MEN and a brazen serpent.

[FreeGrace]

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

The resurrection of Christ was more than Him coming back to life. It was the entrance of something totally new in the universe. Therefore it was a birth of the completely new matter. 

Well, yes and no.  He raised Lazarus "back to life", Lazarus didn't receive an immortal glorified body, and subsequently died again.

But with Jesus, He was the FIRST human to receive a glorified, immortal imperishable body.  Acts 26:23 describes Him as "the first to rise from the dead", and hence He is the "Firstfruits" in 1 Cor 15:23, which describes the resurrection of all believers and when.

The Bible does not describe either the simple "coming back to physical life" or the resurrection to glorified immortal imperishable life as a "birth".

What the Bible does describe as a 'birth' is at the moment of faith in Christ when the Holy Spirit RE-generates the dead human spirit, also called being "born again" or the "new birth", or being "made alive", all biblical words.

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

 The resurrection of the redeemed, regeneratedm, sanctified, transformed, conformed, tranfigured and glorified saved is also following Christ as a new matter in the universe.

What verses speak of "following Christ as a new matter in the universe"?  What is "new", specifically?

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

I will write about both. Starting with Christ who is called "the Beginning, the Firstborn from the dead".

 And He is the Head of the Body, the church; He is the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead, (Col. 1:18)

OK.  I'll stay tuned.

[FreeGrace]

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Will see more how Christ's resurrection was the BIRTH of the Firstborn Son of God - much more than merely coming back to life. But He initiated the new creation - the mingling of divinity and humanity upon the eternal throne for all eternity.

It was the First Advent at Jesus' birth to Mary where we see "the mingling of divinity and humanity".  Jesus is THE God-man.  

[FreeGrace]

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

Thanks and your prayers would be a blessing. 

I hope it may help some who found it difficult to see the man-child in Revelation 12 is the BIRTH of people in resurrection conformed to the image of the  Firstborn Son of God - Christ. 

Ah!  The agenda is coming into focus.  😉

[FreeGrace]

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

In Acts 13 the Apostle Paul spoke of David's descendent or his seed as being born on the day of Christ's resurrection. 

That God has fully fulfilled this promise to us their children in raising up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, “You are My Son; this day have I begotten You.” (Acts 13:33) 

"[T]his day" is the day of Christ's resurrection here. 

Not what the Bible teaches.  Christ wasn't born on His resurrection.  The Psa refers to WHEN the Trinity decided the Second Member of the Trinity would take on humanity and go to the cross for mankind.

Christ's resurrection has nothing to do with a birth.

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

The day of His resurrection Christ went from being the Only-begotten Son of God to being the Firstborn in resurrection.

Acts 26:23 explains this easily.  "that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

This is clearly a reference to His resurrection from the dead, with a resurrection body that was glorified, immortal and imperishable.  iow, He was the FIRST human to receive this kind of body.  And all believers will receive the same kind of body when all of them are resurrected at the same event, per 1 Cor 15:23.  So that proves that none of the records of people being raised from the dead, in the OT and NT, received the glorified immortal body like Jesus had.  All of them died again, because they came back to life in their physical mortal body.

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

  That is the meaning here of "You are My Son; this day [of resurrection] I have begotten You."

Please cite biblical evidence or scholarly statements that "day" refers to 'resurrection'.  Jesus was born fully God and fully human.  And the word "begotten" refers to the birth process, not resurrection.  So I am asking for the evidence that led you to view "day" as "day of resurrection".

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

 I do not mean that Christ was no longer the Onlybegotten Son when He raised from the dead. I mean He took on an additional new status as the Firstborn Son, the Firstborn from the dead.

Again, Acts 26:23 tells us that Jesus was the FIRST to receive a glorified resurrection body.  That's all that means.

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

 Jesus Christ is on one hand that Only-begotten Son given to redeem sinners through His death. And on the other hand He is now the Firstborn Son to whom we who are saved are destined to be conformed. 

Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers; (Rom. 8:28)

All believers WILL BE conformed to the image of God's Son WHEN they receive their resurrection body.

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

 On the day Christ was resurrected He was also BORN the Firstborn Son of God as the Head of a new humanity we saved are destined to fully participate in. So Hebrews says that it is the Firstborn that is leading many sons into glory. And it is the Firstborn who brings with Him into the inhabited earth brothers.

I think "firstborn" is equivalent to "only begotten Son".  Nothing more than that.

8 hours ago, Feedmysheep said:

And when He brings again the Firstborn into the inhabited earth, (Hebrews 1:6a)

For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings. (Heb. 2:10)

Or, 1:6 could just as easily say, "He brings again the Only Begotten".

[FreeGrace]

40 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

You made some crucial statements there that do not show the wording of the verses. 1st Corinthians 15:22 says "ALL" men.  There is no special class mentioned. If there is a special class the they are found in the next verse - verses 23 - "Those that are His". So there is a class of men who are not His. But they are resurrected a thousand year later because verse 24 onward says that Christ must REIGN until all enemies are subdued.

Amen!  👍

[Feedmysheep]

On 1/7/2025 at 4:29 PM, AdHoc said:

 

<<<You made some crucial statements there that do not show the wording of the verses. 1st Corinthians 15:22 says "ALL" men.  There is no special class mentioned. If there is a special class the they are found in the next verse - verses 23 - "Those that are His". So there is a class of men who are not His. But they are resurrected a thousand year later because verse 24 onward says that Christ must REIGN until all enemies are subdued.>>>

Did you notice that I covered that matter when speaking to John 28,29? I mean about the resurrection of life and the resurrection to judgment.

 

<<<<I think that there is a difficulty. The words "done good" are works. "Done" is past tense of "do" - an act of effort. To obtain eternal life we have to BELIEVE. And this is born out in the inspired record. Revelation 20 calls them "the rest of thr dead". Your footnote says that believers will be resurrected before the millennium. The White Throne resurrection would have no Christians in it.  They are resurrected "when He comes">>>

 

After reading this paragraph about five or six times, I wondered what I wrote  that  implied that "the rest of the dead" at the great white throne would include Christians.

 

The "have done good"  I think we should take as the work of God is to believe in the Son of God.

 

Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe into Him whom He has sent. (see John 6:28,29)

<<<Romans 5:12-17 gives the reason that we all face death. It is because we inherit Adam's fallen nature. The Bible calls this "sin" (singular). Even though we had no part in this transgression, we inherit "sin" because of Genesis 1:11-12 - God's Law of KINDS. If a kind has seed within itself, it will produce the same kind. The result of "sin" (singular) is death (Rom.6:23). When John Baptist saw Jesus he proclaims Jesus as the Lamb of God "Who takes away the SIN (singular) of the world". This is different to 1st John 2:2. There, our Lord dies for the SINS (plural) of the world. These are the "trespasses" that are the fruit of a "sin-nature". The wages of "trespasses" is "The Second Death".>>>

 

 This is well put, the distinction between  the sin nature and the acts of sins. I follow you. 

 

 <<<The big difference is that the Lamb of God pays the price for Adam causing physical death. By dying as the Lamb of God, Christ allows God JUDICIALLY to annul physical death. I gives God lawful permission to RAISE EVERY MAN. It is the medicne for physical death. It allows God to defeat death - His last enemy. So John 5:28-29 and 1st Corinthians 15:22 really mean ALL men. But that does not mean that the guilty will escape. They are raised to JUDGEMENT for what they DID - their trespasses. Hitler will be resurrected because of the Lamb's Work, but face the Lamb Who will judge him for what he DID - his trespasses.>>>

 

This is interesting and helpful.  I think John 5:28-29, however, with a focus on the general (believers vs unbelievers) should not be taken to mean that saved Christians will not stand be judged in any sense. Because Paul, a saved believer said "We must all  [including himself] . . be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body according to what he has practiced, whether good or bad.   

 

 <<<Now, turning to the New Creature, Romans 8 tells us that the WHOLE of creation GROANS. This is because of certain sins like shedding innocent blood. Idolatry is another. Jesus payed for restoration and lifting of the curses, but it is up to the kings of the millennium to see that these sins are stopped or met with justice. So in His death and resurrection, Christ initiates the New Creation which has no death.>>>

 

I follow you. You are going to find that my treatment of "new creation" will have a focus on the church which consummates in the New Jerusalem. That is the humanity with God permeating it rather than the humanity without  God in it.  

 Yes, I believe "Behold, I make all things new" (Rev. 21:5)  includes a new creation of many items of the natural world which are groaning in travail of corruption. The universe awaits the manifestation of the sons of God. And we expect new heavens and new earth in which righteousness dwells.(2 Pet. 3:13).

 

I am going to be leaning on the New Jerusalem as the sons of God - man and God (who is eternal newness)  united. This is what I will be emphasizing as the resurrected Christ - the Head of the Body, the church; He is the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead.

 

I mean, the central "new" of God and man mingled in an incorporation. So then if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away; behold, they have become new. ( 2 Cor. 5:17)

 

The church must spearhead this movement into the new universe. The church must be the place this newness of divine life, a resurrection life, implants in man to grow in man and permeat every part of our being.  As He grows within so the manifestation of the sons of God is arising for which all creation is eagerly awaiting. I know that you know well the passage.  

The creation was made subject to vanity according to God's will.

In hope that the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails in pain together until now.

And not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan in ourselves, eagerly awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body. (Rom. 8:21-23) 

 

As Christians one part of our being is already in this realm of newness. Our innermost spiritual kernel is one with the resurrected Christ.  "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17) 

One part of our being has already entered into that new universe. Our spirit has entered. Our souls are following. Our bodies will follow. We are regenerated in our spirit. We are being transformed in our soul. And we will be transfigured in our body.  Then the new environment is ready to be made new for the sons of God are manifested. 

Out human spirit and soul and body God has covenanted to preserve entirely, complete in sanctification. And He will do it. So we need to apply our cooperation through His grace.

And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Faithful is He who calls you, who also will do it. (1 Thess. 5:23,24) 

<<<The context is everything. Christ is the first grain of Wheat. In John 12:24 he brings forth many of the same KIND. But in Colossians 1 He is CREATOR not Wheat. The first creation came out of His mouth, and he uses His mouth for the New Creature. In Colossians He is not the Lamb. He is the "Life-Giving SPIRIT". >>>

 

Do you feel even in bringing our whole being into newness of life it is also much a matter of His word and His speaking? I do. I mean we were regenerated by the living and abiding word of God. 

Having been regenerated not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, through the living and abiding word of God. ( 1 Pet. 1;23) 

 

And His process of sancifying the moral spots and wrinkles of oldness out of the church involves His washing her in the water of the rhema (the word). 

Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her

That He might sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing of the water in the word That He might present the church to Himself glorious, not having spot or wrinkle or any such things, but that she would be holy and without blemish. (Eph. 5:25b-27)

How we need the water of His living word to speak to us expressly everyday. This rhema of the instant word removes the old and imparts the new. 

 

<<<In Romans 8 He is revealed as BEING RAISED because the SPIRIT is the center and context. But in John He is the one on the pole "who will draw ALL men to Himself." (Jn.3 and Nicodemus). In John 3 it is not a matter of trespasses. It is a matter of a poison INSIDE MEN and a brazen serpent.>>>

 

  I would like to return to this latter. You'll find me leaning towards my OP of resurrection being birth. 

  Thanks for the contribution. Praise Him for this encouragement in fellowship. 

 

Edited January 9 by Feedmysheep

[Feedmysheep]

 There is an additional crucial status that Christ attained when He was resurrected. On the day He was raised He was declared the Son of God. This was the Firstborn Son of God in addition to Him being the  only begotten Son of God.

This birth of the Firstborn Son of God was according to the promise of God to the OT fathers.

 From this man’s seed, God, according to promise, brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, (Acts 13:23) . . . That God has fully fulfilled this promise to us their children in raising up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, “You are My Son; this day have I begotten You.”

And as to His having raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to corruption, He spoke in this way, “I will give you the holy things of David, the faithful things.” (vs. 33,34)

 Paul gave this message. And Paul wrote also in Romans about this declaration of the Firstborn Son who is the divine agenda of God. 

1.) Christ was declared this Son of God in power  at His resurrection.

 . . . the gospel of God, Which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures,

Concerning His Son, who came out of the seed of David according to the flesh,

Who was designated the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness out of the resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord;

2.) The pinnacle of Romans is really chapter 8.  Here we see the eternal purpose of God is to conform all the saved into the image of the Firstborn Son of God.  In fact to those who love God He assures He engineers all things and the entire creation to accomplish this goal. 

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers; (Rom. 8:28,29)

3.) What follows is Paul's outline that begins with God's predestination on through to the end point of glorification.

And those whom He predestinated, these He also called; and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these He also glorified. (v.30)

This marvelous outline shows the process predestination --->calling ---> justification --->glorification

  Notice also that all these operations are in the past tense. This must mean that in the eyes of God who transcends time all has been accomplished. We who exist in time may be assured that God cannot be stopped eventually bringing all the Christians to this high peak of glorification, man expressing the divine life of God in splendour. 

 

Edited January 8 by Feedmysheep
spelling

[Feedmysheep]

The declaration of Christ as the Firstborn Son of God is different from the declaration of Him as the only begotten Son of God.

Here we see a few places where Jesus was declared to be the  Son of God before resurrection.

Concerning His conception in the womb of Mary:

Luke 1:35 - And the angel answered and said to her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore also the holy thing which is born will be called the Son of God.

At His baptism: 

Matt. 3:17 - And behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I have found My delight.

At His transfiguration: 

Matt. 17:5 - While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I have found My delight. Hear Him! 

These were declarations of Him as the only begotten Son of God. And these below was His declaration as the Firstborn of many brothers Son of God at-

 His resurrection.

Rom. 1:3,4 - Concerning His Son, who came out of the seed of David according to the flesh, Who was designated the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness out of the resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord; 

Acts 13:33 - That God has fully fulfilled this promise to us their children in raising up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, “You are My Son; this day have I begotten You.”

Edited January 8 by Feedmysheep