Pretrib Rapture is a Lie

[BornAgain490]

28 minutes ago, Ray12614 said:

His return is eminent.

Imminent.  But there are still signs to come, such as the cosmic disturbances mentioned in Matthew 24, Isaiah 13, Joel 2. 

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Ray12614 said:

I just cannot fathom how God (who has a long standing history of delivering His people) will leave His people to experience His wrath.

Since there is some overlap between the wrath of God expressed in the 3 sets of 7 things with the 10 plagues of Egypt, we do see that God protected His people from what the Egyptians experienced.  So He can certainly do that again, without taking anyone off the earth.  The Jews lived in Goshen, which was a part of Egypt.  God didn't remove them from Egypt.

Ex 8:22 - “‘But on that day I will deal differently with the land of Goshen, where my people live; no swarms of flies will be there, so that you will know that I, the LORD, am in this land.

Ex 9:26 - The only place it did not hail was the land of Goshen, where the Israelites were.

Ex 10:23 - No one could see anyone else or move about for three days. Yet all the Israelites had light in the places where they lived.

And we know that there will be many martyrs during the tribulation, but that will not be death from wrath, but the opportunity to be faithful to the Lord in time of disaster.

1 hour ago, Ray12614 said:

BUT . . . if that does happen . . . no Christian who has had any exposure to scripture would knowingly take the mark of the beast unless their walk with Jesus is shallow or non existent.

The Bible is clear that God uses physical death to remove unfaithful believers, per 1 Cor 5:5, 11:30, and Acts 5.  Plus other verses that show God removing unfaithful believers.  Since the teaching of eternal security is clear, no believer CAN take the mark.  So those believers who "walk with Jesus is shallow/non existent" will be removed before the mark is available.

Otherwise, the Bible contradicts itself.  It is clear that all those who take the mark will end up in the LOF, so if unfaithful shallow believers take the mark, means they will perish, totally against what Jesus said in Jn 3:16 and 10:28.  No believer will perish.

[AdHoc]

On 1/22/2025 at 2:29 PM, FreeGrace said:

The Bible is actually quite clear about these end times issues.

First, there is just one resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved.  Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15.  All 3 indicate the same thing.

Second, 1 Cor 15:23 is very clear about the resurrection of the saved.  It will occur "when He comes".  Heb 9:28 speaks of the Second Advent or Coming as "when He comes a second time", to "bring salvation".  Here, obviously, salvation refers to deliverance because at the Second Advent He ends the Tribulation at the battle of Armageddon.  And the verse tells us who will be resurrected:  "those who belong to Him", which can only refer to every saved person in history.  How can anyone argue that any saved person does not belong to Him?  Doesn't make sense.

Third, 1 Thess 4:13-17 cannot be about a pre-trib event because 1 Cor 15:23 tells us every saved person will be resurrected "when He comes".  See Rev 20:4-6

Fourth, Rev 20:4-6 refers to trib martyrs who are resurrected and will reign with Christ for 1,000 years, which is the Millennial Reign on earth when Jesus Christ returns to earth.  v.5 calls this resurrection the FIRST resurrection, and "the rest of the dead" can only refer to the unsaved dead, who will be resurrected at the end of the Millennial Reign, when God fries all the living unbelievers on earth at the battle of Gog and Magog.  Rev 20:9

I was brought up taught in a pre-trib resurrection with rapture.  The only problem is there are no verses that describe Jesus taking any glorified immortal believers to heaven.  

I am familiar with your understanding. You are very much on the right track. I'll point some details out that change the scene somewhat. I'll start at your ending - about going to heaven.

Because current Christian theology still takes the Roman Church's teaching of a "Celestial Lodge" for the Good, there are a number of self-induced difficulties with the end times. How do the dead RISE when they are already in heaven? How do the dead in heaven FIRST RISE and then TOGETHER are caught UP with  the living? Why then the question of the Thessalonians, and Paul's COMFORTING them in 1st Thess.4. The question answered by Paul is NOT primarily a discourse on the rapture, but what happens to the dead at rapture. The question of the Thessalonians is not IF there is a rapture, but how are the dead part of the rapture seeing as the have no body.

Then there is that fact that no one wants to touch. Why is David NOT ASCENDED and his grave still with Peter 50 days after our Lord's resurrection and 10 days after His ascension? (Act.2:26-35). To add to these mysteries, why are the martyrs UNDER the Altar (Rev.6:9) when the age of grace has ended and thy cry for vengeance? And above all, why do the sleeping Virgins ARISE FIRST and then go out to meet the groom when they should have been with Him for centuries. I'm sure you have considered these so I'll leave off and mention the detail I promised.

1. 1st Corinthians 15:22 says that "ALL in Adam die and IN THIS MANNER "ALL" will rise. That is "ALL" men! John 5:28-29 confirms this. "ALL in the graves". But at once a difficulty arises. What about the LIVING? They are not in their graves. Notice the language in John 5. In verse 25 our Lord deals with "THE DEAD" but in verse 28 it is those IN GRAVES. One "SHALL LIVE" - the other "SHALL COME FORTH". Of those in 28-29 SOME enter life and SOME enter damnation, BUT BOTH ARE RESURRECTED!

2. 1st Corinthian 15:23 says "those who are His when He comes". Who are His? Well, He is maker and King of Israel. Dan.12:2 says they who are in the dust rise AFTER the Great Tribulation. This agrees with Matthew 24:31 -"AFTER the Tribulation of those days" (V.29) and AFTER Jesus has COME like lightning. But immediately after this prophecy our Lord reverts to PARABLES. According to Mathew 13 PARABLES are so that only the disciples understand. And here one is TAKEN and one LEFT by a "THIEF". No lightning, no glory, no clouds, but a stealthy thief who comes unseen and unannounced and takes only what is PRECIOUS. Then the thief disappears again and people wonder what is missing!

At once it is clear that there is ONE COMING of our Lord Jesus but He makes a stop or two on the way. He is now seated at the right hand in His Father's Throne - which is above all heavens (Eph.4:8-10). In Revelation 4 He stops His downward journey to be crowned and enthroned FOR EARTH (for in Matthew 25:31-32 His throne is set up BEFORE ALL NATIONS). After His coronation in Revelation 4  He descends to the clouds. A shout and the trumpet call the Church to a traveling throne (The Bema - Rom.14:10). Why? because judgment must begin in the House of the Lord.

When this Judgment is finished our Lord descends and breaks cloud like lightning. He sends His angels to gather those "scattered to the four winds" - Israel. And so scripture fits perfectly. Our Lord makes ONE JOURNEY from His Father's Thrones, through heaven, through the clouds to Mount Olives. On the way he is crowned and enthroned on HIS THRONE OF GLORY for the earth. He causes the rapture of the Church to meet them in the clouds. But Matthew 13 says that the "gathering" of te Wheat is a HARVEST. And so w now come to the DIFFERENT RAPTURES for a husbandman NEVER harvests the UNRIPE.

If the end of the age is a harvest, and we explain scripture with scripture, the SOME Christians are RIPE FIRST. Then SOME are ripened by more heat and dryness. (of Tribulation). And then comes the gleanings (See Leviticus 23 and nature). This leaves us with
1. One COMING of Jesus but with two intermediate stops.
2. One Rapture, but as a harvest
3. One resurrection for those who are His, but divided into the Church and then Israel (about seven years apart) but both "at His coming"

In Philippians 3:9-14 Paul "STROVE" to be fond "worthy TO ATTAIN"  the "out-resurrection" and to obtain the PRIZE of the "Upward call" (Lit. Gk.). This opens a whole new bag of worms.

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I am familiar with your understanding. You are very much on the right track. I'll point some details out that change the scene somewhat. I'll start at your ending - about going to heaven.

I appreciate your input.  I will respond as I move through your post.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Because current Christian theology still takes the Roman Church's teaching of a "Celestial Lodge" for the Good, there are a number of self-induced difficulties with the end times. How do the dead RISE when they are already in heaven?

"Rising" refers to the resurrected body.  It is the soul/spirit that is already in heaven and accompanies the King back to earth at the end of the Tribulation when Jesus ends the trib and sets up His kingdom.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

How do the dead in heaven FIRST RISE and then TOGETHER are caught UP with  the living?

1 Thess 4:13-17 seems clear to me.  Jesus brings with Him all the saints who have already died throughout history.  They receive their glorified immortal bodies before those who are "alive and remain until the coming of the Lord".  They are changed after the dead receive their resurrection bodies first.  The "catching up" refers only to the clouds, where the living meet the Lord and all the dead saints that come with Him.

Neither 1 Thess 4:13-17 nor any other passage describes Jesus taking any resurrected believers to heaven.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Why then the question of the Thessalonians, and Paul's COMFORTING them in 1st Thess.4. The question answered by Paul is NOT primarily a discourse on the rapture, but what happens to the dead at rapture.

I would change 'rapture' to 'resurrection', since that is the subject.  Apparently the congregation at Thessalonica were told Jesus had already come and gone.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The question of the Thessalonians is not IF there is a rapture, but how are the dead part of the rapture seeing as the have no body.

This is a question that will only be answered in eternity.  Paul makes a clear contrast between a believer who is alive physically and one who has died physically.  He uses plain words:  the believer who is "absent from the body" (death) is "at home with the Lord", meaning in heaven with Jesus.  And vice versa.  Those in the body are "absent from the Lord".

No one knows what kind of condition or status the souls have in heaven.  We know from Jesus' account of poor Lazarus and a rich man that they could see each other and speak.  How they appeared we don't know.

John described "souls under the altar" in heaven, who were singing and asking questions.  

The mystery will be solved when we get to eternity.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Then there is that fact that no one wants to touch. Why is David NOT ASCENDED and his grave still with Peter 50 days after our Lord's resurrection and 10 days after His ascension? (Act.2:26-35).

29 - “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.

30 - But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne.

31 - Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.

32 - God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it.

33 - Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

34 - For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, “‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
35 - until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’

v.29 says David's tomb was still here.  Where his dead body still is.

v.34 shows that OT saints didn't go to heaven but to Paradise, or Abraham's bosom, like Lazarus did.  Only after the crucifixion do saints go to heaven when they die.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

To add to these mysteries, why are the martyrs UNDER the Altar (Rev.6:9) when the age of grace has ended and thy cry for vengeance?

What mystery?  These are saints who have died and are in heaven, waiting for their resurrection.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

And above all, why do the sleeping Virgins ARISE FIRST and then go out to meet the groom when they should have been with Him for centuries. I'm sure you have considered these so I'll leave off and mention the detail I promised.

I don't get into parables, because only the one who gives the parable is able to explain what he means.  And even Jesus had to explain them to His disciples.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

1. 1st Corinthians 15:22 says that "ALL in Adam die and IN THIS MANNER "ALL" will rise.

Not quite.  v.22 - For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Paul makes a contrast.  All die (physically) by being "in Adam" (his progeny).  I don't see "in this manner" in this verse.  The "all will be made alive" is preceded with "In Christ", indicating specifically believers, saved people.  So "made alive" can refer to regeneration or receiving a resurrection body that cannot perish.

So it should be clear that v.23 is specifically about the believer's resurrection and when it will occur.

Every mention of resurrection in the Bible is singular.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

That is "ALL" men! John 5:28-29 confirms this. "ALL in the graves".

v.28 - “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice

v.29 - and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

v.28 simply states that everyone will be resurrected.  It doesn't say whether the saved and unsaved will be resurrected at the same time or separately.  But other verses make that very clear.  Rev 20:4-6.  The saved are in the FIRST esurrection (v.5).  The unsaved will be resurrected 1,000 years later, or at the end of the Millennial reign, when all unbelievers are dead, only to appear before the GWT judgment and then cast into the LOF, where their mortal resurrected body will die again. That is why the LOF is also called the "second death".  Refers to the body.

v.29 clearly indicates the saved will receive immortal bodies and the unsaved will be condemned "to be tormented day and night, for ever and ever", per Rev 20:10.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But at once a difficulty arises. What about the LIVING? They are not in their graves.

No problem.  1 Thess 4:13-17 clarifies that the living will "meet THEM in the air".  That means the Lord and all the dead saints from heaven.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Notice the language in John 5. In verse 25 our Lord deals with "THE DEAD" but in verse 28 it is those IN GRAVES. One "SHALL LIVE" - the other "SHALL COME FORTH". Of those in 28-29 SOME enter life and SOME enter damnation, BUT BOTH ARE RESURRECTED!

Yes.  Even unbelievers will be resurrected.  But, only back to their mortal bodies, which will die again.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

2. 1st Corinthian 15:23 says "those who are His when He comes". Who are His? Well, He is maker and King of Israel.

Well, everyone who has believed in Him are His.  That phrase indicates ALL believers from all time.  Clearly stating that all the saved will be resurrected at the same time, which is "when He comes", a reference to the Second Advent.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Dan.12:2 says they who are in the dust rise AFTER the Great Tribulation. This agrees with Matthew 24:31 -"AFTER the Tribulation of those days" (V.29) and AFTER Jesus has COME like lightning.

Still no problem.  All the dead bodies of believers will be resurrected and united with their souls "when He comes".  It all points to post trib.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But immediately after this prophecy our Lord reverts to PARABLES. According to Mathew 13 PARABLES are so that only the disciples understand.

The only reason they understood was because Jesus had to explain the parables to them.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

And here one is TAKEN and one LEFT by a "THIEF". No lightning, no glory, no clouds, but a stealthy thief who comes unseen and unannounced and takes only what is PRECIOUS. Then the thief disappears again and people wonder what is missing!

Some try to differentiate by noting what isn't in some passages with what is in other passages.  But, really, not every passage has to include every detail.  In Rev 20:4-6, only martyred believers are mentioned regarding resurrection.  But 1 Cor 15:23 is clear that "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes".  

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

At once it is clear that there is ONE COMING of our Lord Jesus but He makes a stop or two on the way.

Not clear to me.  What stops?

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

He is now seated at the right hand in His Father's Throne - which is above all heavens (Eph.4:8-10). In Revelation 4 He stops His downward journey to be crowned and enthroned FOR EARTH (for in Matthew 25:31-32 His throne is set up BEFORE ALL NATIONS). After His coronation in Revelation 4  He descends to the clouds.

I don't see Jesus making stops along the way to earth from heaven for the resurrection of all believers.  In fact, He isn't "enthroned" until He gets to earth, where He will rule the nations with a rod of iron.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

A shout and the trumpet call the Church to a traveling throne (The Bema - Rom.14:10).

v.10 - You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.

The verse mentions the Bema, but not when.  However, since Rev 19B shows Jesus and all the saints preparing to return to earth on white horses, it should be obvious that the Bema will be on earth after all the saints receive their resurrection bodies.  Kinda like getting their eternal uniform.  Upon which to wear whatever medals they receive for their time on earth.  And some won't receive any reward at all.

But it only makes sense that the Bema won't occur until ALL the saints receive their immortal bodies, which occurs at the Second Advent.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

When this Judgment is finished our Lord descends and breaks cloud like lightning. He sends His angels to gather those "scattered to the four winds" - Israel. And so scripture fits perfectly. Our Lord makes ONE JOURNEY from His Father's Thrones, through heaven, through the clouds to Mount Olives. On the way he is crowned and enthroned on HIS THRONE OF GLORY for the earth. He causes the rapture of the Church to meet them in the clouds.

OK.  As long as the 'rapture' is only the living believers to the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and not to heaven.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But Matthew 13 says that the "gathering" of te Wheat is a HARVEST. And so w now come to the DIFFERENT RAPTURES for a husbandman NEVER harvests the UNRIPE.

I think too much has been made of 'firstfruits' being connected to a harvest.  1 Cor 15:23 clearly indicates that Jesus was FIRST to receive a glorified immortal body, and "when He comes", all believers will receive theirs.  I've seen some explanations that all harvests have 3 parts, and use that analogy to explain Jesus in the first part of the harvest, and then the other 2 parts are pre-trib and then post-trib.

Not buying it.  Only 1 resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

If the end of the age is a harvest, and we explain scripture with scripture, the SOME Christians are RIPE FIRST. Then SOME are ripened by more heat and dryness. (of Tribulation). And then comes the gleanings (See Leviticus 23 and nature). This leaves us with
1. One COMING of Jesus but with two intermediate stops.
2. One Rapture, but as a harvest
3. One resurrection for those who are His, but divided into the Church and then Israel (about seven years apart) but both "at His coming"

But there is only one coming of Jesus, not several.

Heb 9:28 - so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

If Jesus makes 2 stops, the so-called Second Advent should have been called the Third Advent.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

In Philippians 3:9-14 Paul "STROVE" to be fond "worthy TO ATTAIN"  the "out-resurrection" and to obtain the PRIZE of the "Upward call" (Lit. Gk.). This opens a whole new bag of worms.

I believe Paul was referring to the reward he was looking forward to when Jesus returns and he will appear before the Bema.  Recall, a "prize" isn't resurrection, or salvation, but reward, since a prize is earned.

A gift, otoh, is not earned, but is free.  Rom 6:23.

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I appreciate your input.  I will respond as I move through your post.

"Rising" refers to the resurrected body.  It is the soul/spirit that is already in heaven and accompanies the King back to earth at the end of the Tribulation when Jesus ends the trib and sets up His kingdom.

1 Thess 4:13-17 seems clear to me.  Jesus brings with Him all the saints who have already died throughout history.  They receive their glorified immortal bodies before those who are "alive and remain until the coming of the Lord".  They are changed after the dead receive their resurrection bodies first.  The "catching up" refers only to the clouds, where the living meet the Lord and all the dead saints that come with Him.

Neither 1 Thess 4:13-17 nor any other passage describes Jesus taking any resurrected believers to heaven.

I would change 'rapture' to 'resurrection', since that is the subject.  Apparently the congregation at Thessalonica were told Jesus had already come and gone.

This is a question that will only be answered in eternity.  Paul makes a clear contrast between a believer who is alive physically and one who has died physically.  He uses plain words:  the believer who is "absent from the body" (death) is "at home with the Lord", meaning in heaven with Jesus.  And vice versa.  Those in the body are "absent from the Lord".

No one knows what kind of condition or status the souls have in heaven.  We know from Jesus' account of poor Lazarus and a rich man that they could see each other and speak.  How they appeared we don't know.

John described "souls under the altar" in heaven, who were singing and asking questions.  

The mystery will be solved when we get to eternity.

29 - “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.

30 - But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne.

31 - Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.

32 - God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it.

33 - Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

34 - For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, “‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
35 - until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’

v.29 says David's tomb was still here.  Where his dead body still is.

v.34 shows that OT saints didn't go to heaven but to Paradise, or Abraham's bosom, like Lazarus did.  Only after the crucifixion do saints go to heaven when they die.

What mystery?  These are saints who have died and are in heaven, waiting for their resurrection.

I don't get into parables, because only the one who gives the parable is able to explain what he means.  And even Jesus had to explain them to His disciples.

Not quite.  v.22 - For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Paul makes a contrast.  All die (physically) by being "in Adam" (his progeny).  I don't see "in this manner" in this verse.  The "all will be made alive" is preceded with "In Christ", indicating specifically believers, saved people.  So "made alive" can refer to regeneration or receiving a resurrection body that cannot perish.

So it should be clear that v.23 is specifically about the believer's resurrection and when it will occur.

Every mention of resurrection in the Bible is singular.

v.28 - “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice

v.29 - and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

v.28 simply states that everyone will be resurrected.  It doesn't say whether the saved and unsaved will be resurrected at the same time or separately.  But other verses make that very clear.  Rev 20:4-6.  The saved are in the FIRST esurrection (v.5).  The unsaved will be resurrected 1,000 years later, or at the end of the Millennial reign, when all unbelievers are dead, only to appear before the GWT judgment and then cast into the LOF, where their mortal resurrected body will die again. That is why the LOF is also called the "second death".  Refers to the body.

v.29 clearly indicates the saved will receive immortal bodies and the unsaved will be condemned "to be tormented day and night, for ever and ever", per Rev 20:10.

No problem.  1 Thess 4:13-17 clarifies that the living will "meet THEM in the air".  That means the Lord and all the dead saints from heaven.

Yes.  Even unbelievers will be resurrected.  But, only back to their mortal bodies, which will die again.

Well, everyone who has believed in Him are His.  That phrase indicates ALL believers from all time.  Clearly stating that all the saved will be resurrected at the same time, which is "when He comes", a reference to the Second Advent.

Still no problem.  All the dead bodies of believers will be resurrected and united with their souls "when He comes".  It all points to post trib.

The only reason they understood was because Jesus had to explain the parables to them.

Some try to differentiate by noting what isn't in some passages with what is in other passages.  But, really, not every passage has to include every detail.  In Rev 20:4-6, only martyred believers are mentioned regarding resurrection.  But 1 Cor 15:23 is clear that "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes".  

Not clear to me.  What stops?

I don't see Jesus making stops along the way to earth from heaven for the resurrection of all believers.  In fact, He isn't "enthroned" until He gets to earth, where He will rule the nations with a rod of iron.

v.10 - You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.

The verse mentions the Bema, but not when.  However, since Rev 19B shows Jesus and all the saints preparing to return to earth on white horses, it should be obvious that the Bema will be on earth after all the saints receive their resurrection bodies.  Kinda like getting their eternal uniform.  Upon which to wear whatever medals they receive for their time on earth.  And some won't receive any reward at all.

But it only makes sense that the Bema won't occur until ALL the saints receive their immortal bodies, which occurs at the Second Advent.

OK.  As long as the 'rapture' is only the living believers to the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and not to heaven.

I think too much has been made of 'firstfruits' being connected to a harvest.  1 Cor 15:23 clearly indicates that Jesus was FIRST to receive a glorified immortal body, and "when He comes", all believers will receive theirs.  I've seen some explanations that all harvests have 3 parts, and use that analogy to explain Jesus in the first part of the harvest, and then the other 2 parts are pre-trib and then post-trib.

Not buying it.  Only 1 resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved.

But there is only one coming of Jesus, not several.

Heb 9:28 - so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

If Jesus makes 2 stops, the so-called Second Advent should have been called the Third Advent.

I believe Paul was referring to the reward he was looking forward to when Jesus returns and he will appear before the Bema.  Recall, a "prize" isn't resurrection, or salvation, but reward, since a prize is earned.

A gift, otoh, is not earned, but is free.  Rom 6:23.

Well thank you for your time and for taking things seriously. I must commend you.

I had difficulty with some of your answers. I will not go through them all but you seemed to miss the matter of David. My point was that David was not in heaven, not ascended, and in Hades 50 days after Christ's resurrection and 10 days after His ascension. 

I could not follow your understanding of 1 Thessalonians 4. The grammar says the Dead in Christ will rise FIRST. Now every resurrection in the Bible produced a living person ON EARTH including Christ. James 2:26 says the body without the spirit is dead, but the maiden of Lue 8:55 was made alive by her spirit returning. This is confirmed in 1st Corinthians 15:35-36

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Verse 35 says the dead receive a body and are so "quickened". You have dead bodies rising and only becoming alive when Christ brings their soul/spirit down with Him. But was not the question in 1st Thessalonians 4; "how will the dead who, like David, are in Hades, be able to be with the Lord when He returns as Jude predicts"? Otherwise, what was there to sorrow about?

I salute you though in that where you were unsure, you said it was a mystery. That is honesty seldom found on this Forum. But if you approached the whole matter wth the souls of the saints still in Hades like David, all problems that you so diligently answered would disappear.

Let's take the saints  under the Altar in Revelation 6. The Tabernacle on earth has TWO Altars - 1. the Altar of incense hard against the Veil and the Altar of sacrifice in the Outer Court. One is acacia wood covered with gold and the altar of sacrifice acacia wood covered in bronze. The instructions to Moses were that after dedication the altar of incense should see no blood - ever. the altar of sacrifice was awash with blood, and it is here, symbolically that Christ was offered - outside the gate.

Which altar does John mean that has the bloodied saints UNDER IT. Well, they were sacrificed ON EARTH for Christ like Christ was sacrificed for us. In heaven there is no sacrifice fro anybody. The tabernacle that Moses copied was the "tent of meeting". the altar and outer court of the earthly tabernacle were ADDED because of sin. That is, the altar of sacrifice doesn't exist in heaven, or is redundant. No blood is shed in heaven. All blood, including Christ's was shed on earth. Thus,everything points to the altar of martyrs as being the earth. And this is cemented by the Law of the altar in Exodus 20 as being FIXED to the earth. The reason is give as if it was raised, nakedness would be seen.

And what are the dead saints in 2nd Corinthians 5? NAKED, they groan, and must wait, as you said, till resurrection day "when He comes". I propose that the dead are in Hades till they RISE in resurrection. Every objection and/or question of mine can be easily and in accordance with the grammar, answered with ease. The saints who are dead are to return with Christ as Jude predicted - the return of Revelation 19. To achieve this they are raptured to the air. For the dead to be raptured they need a body. Thus they RISE FIRST and then TOGETHER with the living, MEET THE LORD.

This scenario makes for one coming of Christ. He stops to meet the saints in the air. he then judges them and comes to Mount of Olives. A harvest does not violate this for the gatherings are many but Christ does not move from His course to earth. The saints are raptured to Him in the clouds.

Go well bro.

[FreeGrace]

46 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Well thank you for your time and for taking things seriously. I must commend you.

Thank you.

46 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I had difficulty with some of your answers. I will not go through them all but you seemed to miss the matter of David. My point was that David was not in heaven, not ascended, and in Hades 50 days after Christ's resurrection and 10 days after His ascension.

I agree that King David was not in heaven when he died.  I'm not aware of where it is said that was still in Hades 50 days after Christ's resurrection and 10 days after His ascension.  

46 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I could not follow your understanding of 1 Thessalonians 4. The grammar says the Dead in Christ will rise FIRST. Now every resurrection in the Bible produced a living person ON EARTH including Christ.

We must understand that all the descriptions of humans "rising to life"; 2 in the OT and the many during Jesus' ministry did NOT result in getting an immortal body.  They got their mortal body back.  Jesus' friend, Lazarus, came back from the dead, but the Jews planned to kill him as well as Jesus.  This shows his mortality.

The first human to receive a glorified immortal body was Jesus, stated in 2 verses.

Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

1 Cor 15:23 says plainly that ALL the saved (those who belong to Him) will be resurrected at the same event, which will be "when He comes", or the Second Advent.

46 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

James 2:26 says the body without the spirit is dead, but the maiden of Lue 8:55 was made alive by her spirit returning. This is confirmed in 1st Corinthians 15:35-36

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Verse 35 says the dead receive a body and are so "quickened". You have dead bodies rising and only becoming alive when Christ brings their soul/spirit down with Him. But was not the question in 1st Thessalonians 4; "how will the dead who, like David, are in Hades, be able to be with the Lord when He returns as Jude predicts"? Otherwise, what was there to sorrow about?

1 Cor 15 describes the end times resurrection of all believers, when they receive glorified immortal bodies that will be just like Jesus'.  

46 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I salute you though in that where you were unsure, you said it was a mystery. That is honesty seldom found on this Forum. But if you approached the whole matter wth the souls of the saints still in Hades like David, all problems that you so diligently answered would disappear.

I don't see where my view has any problems.  When Jesus ascended, He emptied Paradise of all the saved souls and took them with Him.

Paul described the difference between life and death for believers in the NT.

2 Cor 5:6,8

46 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Let's take the saints  under the Altar in Revelation 6. The Tabernacle on earth has TWO Altars - 1. the Altar of incense hard against the Veil and the Altar of sacrifice in the Outer Court. One is acacia wood covered with gold and the altar of sacrifice acacia wood covered in bronze. The instructions to Moses were that after dedication the altar of incense should see no blood - ever. the altar of sacrifice was awash with blood, and it is here, symbolically that Christ was offered - outside the gate.

I don't follow how the Tabernacle way back in the OT is related at all to Rev 6.  It seems to me John was just recording what the dead saints in heaven were doing.

46 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Which altar does John mean that has the bloodied saints UNDER IT. Well, they were sacrificed ON EARTH for Christ like Christ was sacrificed for us. In heaven there is no sacrifice fro anybody. The tabernacle that Moses copied was the "tent of meeting". the altar and outer court of the earthly tabernacle were ADDED because of sin. That is, the altar of sacrifice doesn't exist in heaven, or is redundant. No blood is shed in heaven. All blood, including Christ's was shed on earth. Thus,everything points to the altar of martyrs as being the earth. And this is cemented by the Law of the altar in Exodus 20 as being FIXED to the earth. The reason is give as if it was raised, nakedness would be seen.

Again, it seems to me that John was just noting dead saints in heaven.

46 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

And what are the dead saints in 2nd Corinthians 5? NAKED, they groan, and must wait, as you said, till resurrection day "when He comes".

I highly doubt any souls in heaven are running around like in a nudist camp.  Paul was  simply using dramatic wording for believers longing for their glorified immortal bodies.  I sure am.

46 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I propose that the dead are in Hades till they RISE in resurrection. Every objection and/or question of mine can be easily and in accordance with the grammar, answered with ease. The saints who are dead are to return with Christ as Jude predicted - the return of Revelation 19.

Ah, I see a problem here.  If the dead are in Hades, who are all the people in Rev 19 who are getting ready for the wedding supper and then mounting up to return with the King to earth?  It's all the saints who have died throughout history.

46 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

To achieve this they are raptured to the air. For the dead to be raptured they need a body. Thus they RISE FIRST and then TOGETHER with the living, MEET THE LORD.

1 Thess 4 is clear that the ones who are dead come DOWN with Christ and are met with the living believers who are "caught up" into the air/clouds.  

46 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

This scenario makes for one coming of Christ. He stops to meet the saints in the air.

The dead come with Christ and the living believers are "caught up" to the air.

46 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

he then judges them and comes to Mount of Olives. A harvest does not violate this for the gatherings are many but Christ does not move from His course to earth. The saints are raptured to Him in the clouds.

Go well bro.

The living saints are "caught up" to the clouds.  That isn't a rapture.  And after being changed in the air (1 Cor 15:52) all the believers stay with the King as He comes down to earth, administers the Bema, and then sets up His kingdom where He will rule the nations with a rod of iron for 1,000 years.  

Eph 4 describes Jesus taking the souls from Paradise in Hades to heaven.

[AdHoc]

11 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Thank you.

I agree that King David was not in heaven when he died.  I'm not aware of where it is said that was still in Hades 50 days after Christ's resurrection and 10 days after His ascension.  

We must understand that all the descriptions of humans "rising to life"; 2 in the OT and the many during Jesus' ministry did NOT result in getting an immortal body.  They got their mortal body back.  Jesus' friend, Lazarus, came back from the dead, but the Jews planned to kill him as well as Jesus.  This shows his mortality.

The first human to receive a glorified immortal body was Jesus, stated in 2 verses.

Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

1 Cor 15:23 says plainly that ALL the saved (those who belong to Him) will be resurrected at the same event, which will be "when He comes", or the Second Advent.

1 Cor 15 describes the end times resurrection of all believers, when they receive glorified immortal bodies that will be just like Jesus'.  

I don't see where my view has any problems.  When Jesus ascended, He emptied Paradise of all the saved souls and took them with Him.

Paul described the difference between life and death for believers in the NT.

2 Cor 5:6,8

I don't follow how the Tabernacle way back in the OT is related at all to Rev 6.  It seems to me John was just recording what the dead saints in heaven were doing.

Again, it seems to me that John was just noting dead saints in heaven.

I highly doubt any souls in heaven are running around like in a nudist camp.  Paul was  simply using dramatic wording for believers longing for their glorified immortal bodies.  I sure am.

Ah, I see a problem here.  If the dead are in Hades, who are all the people in Rev 19 who are getting ready for the wedding supper and then mounting up to return with the King to earth?  It's all the saints who have died throughout history.

1 Thess 4 is clear that the ones who are dead come DOWN with Christ and are met with the living believers who are "caught up" into the air/clouds.  

The dead come with Christ and the living believers are "caught up" to the air.

The living saints are "caught up" to the clouds.  That isn't a rapture.  And after being changed in the air (1 Cor 15:52) all the believers stay with the King as He comes down to earth, administers the Bema, and then sets up His kingdom where He will rule the nations with a rod of iron for 1,000 years.  

Eph 4 describes Jesus taking the souls from Paradise in Hades to heaven.

Thanks for your answer.

There are some major doctrines discussed here. I missed the scriptures for your statements. Usually we make doctrine from direct statements and back them with types. The northern kingdom of Israel is taken captive by Assyria. Decades later Babylon defeats and possesses Assyria. The Captivity was led Captive. Nobody went anywhere. Nobody was freed. So also Ephesians 4. What was the "Captivity"? Why did not the Lord  not free the Captives. After all, this is one of the accusations against Lucifer (Isa.14:17).

But certainly a major doctrine is how many times a man can die. The reason we die is found in Romans 5:12-17. It is because one ma transgressed and this transgression is passed on to all men - even though no fault is found. That is because of the Law of KINDS in Genesis 1:11-12, which states that everything that has its seed within itself will reproduce the same kind. This scripture is crucial because the Deity of Jesus is based upon it. Now, Adam (and all men) DIE because Adams transgression is part of the male seed.

But, according to Romans 6, death ends sin (v.6). So for a man to die AGAIN he needs the "sin" (singular) - Adam's nature - to be imparted into him. God would have to authorize a sin nature since the man is not born by seed, but by resurrection. Thus, for a man to die again God would have to impute evil - a doctrine that is neither taught nor supported by scripture. Thus, Hebrews 9:27 is correct without exception. The Second Death is not at all like physical death (see Matthew 10:28), so it cannot be part of the argument.

We are agreed about heaven and naked. But in your first posting to me you stated that the dead are in heaven and come with the Lord to get their bodies which "Rise". That means that they were naked all the time in heaven, or ...

2nd Corinthians 5 is difficult because in this life we "groan" in our bodies. In death we are naked, but we still groan because that is NOT the normal state. You correctly said that we get our new bodies  "when He comes ...". That means that we groan for centuries (Abraham has been naked for 4,000 years). But 2,000 of those years are "Paradise". How can the occupants of Paradise "groan".

But you gave verses 6 and 8. Let us examine them. They say that if we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord. But your body is missing. Being with the Lord cannot be physical. But then you get a body and this removes you from His presence. How? The reason is that men worshiped God in the past at a special place. The Samaritan at Mt. Gerezim, the Jews at Mt. Moriah. But God refuses this worship now as He wants worship IN THE SPIRIT (Jn.4:24). Because Gerezim and Moriah are PLACES, the human spirit must be a place. Man is a Tabernacle (or Temple) and so is made of three parts. 

These three parts speak for the Temple 1. Outer Court (the Body), 2. the Holy Place (the soul), and 3. the Holy of Holies (the spirit of man). the "WAY" to God is through the Outer Court with a sacrifice (Jesus), through the Holy Place and then into the Holy of Holies  - the human spirit. That is, the soul of man, with the light of the Lampstand, with the nourishing Bread of Heaven and with the prayers of Jesus you enter the spirit where God dwells. That is, the ONLY ACCEPTABLE WAY of worship is worship from your soul INTO God's abode (the human spirit).

But at death the human spirit is removed to God who gave it (Eccl.3:21, 12:7). . This made way for the soul of man in Hades to worship the OMNIPRESENT Spirit of God. So, Psalm 139 says;

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in HADES (Sheol), behold, thou art there.

That is, for a dead man to worship correctly AND to be WITH the Lord, he must be IN HADES. In heaven is the Lord BODILY, but that was the very reason He went away and sent the Spirit. Correct worship of the dead is possible only from HADES. Why? Because the dead are UNCLEAN and God will not have fellowship with the NAKED.

I think I have written enough. It is just for your review. You don't have t answer if you don't want to.

Go well.

(P.S. Not proof read. Could be spelling mistakes)

 

[FreeGrace]

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Thanks for your answer.

Any time!

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

There are some major doctrines discussed here. I missed the scriptures for your statements.

I was responding to verses in your post.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Usually we make doctrine from direct statements and back them with types. The northern kingdom of Israel is taken captive by Assyria. Decades later Babylon defeats and possesses Assyria. The Captivity was led Captive. Nobody went anywhere. Nobody was freed. So also Ephesians 4.

So you connect Eph 4 with the above?  Why would Paul mention ancient history in Eph 4?  The chapter highlights our "One Lord", Jesus Christ.  v.7 mentions Christ specifically, just before v.8 which quotes Psa 68:18.  There is much in the Psalms that is prophecy.  And v.8 specifically mentions the ascension of the Lord.  Paul specifically addresses where the souls of NT believers are:  "at home with the Lord", which is in heaven.  And Jesus gave us the account of a rich and poor man, both who died and went to Hades (the place of the dead).  So most scholars understand that all OT saints went to Paradise and all unbelievers went to another compartment called 'torments', or just was that, a place of torment.  We know the rich man was in torment, one way or another.  Either an experience or a place.  I don't see much difference.

I don't see why all the OT saints would stay in Paradise, once Jesus "went and preached to the spirits in prison".  Why wouldn't He take them with Him to heaven?  And there is no evidence in the NT that OT saints are still in Hades.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

What was the "Captivity"? Why did not the Lord free the Captives. After all, this is one of the accusations against Lucifer (Isa.14:17).

I believe the Lord did free the captives, just as Eph 4 indicates.  They were "captive" in Paradise in Hades, and Jesus freed them by taking them to heaven.  I see no problem with that.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

But certainly a major doctrine is how many times a man can die. The reason we die is found in Romans 5:12-17. It is because one ma transgressed and this transgression is passed on to all men - even though no fault is found. That is because of the Law of KINDS in Genesis 1:11-12, which states that everything that has its seed within itself will reproduce the same kind. This scripture is crucial because the Deity of Jesus is based upon it. Now, Adam (and all men) DIE because Adams transgression is part of the male seed.

The answer to how many is easy.  Those who believe in Christ will only die once.  But all unbelievers, who will be resurrected before facing the GWT judgment, will be back in their previous mortal body, which will DIE AGAIN when cast into the LOF.  That is why the LOF is also called the "second death".  Rev 20:14 and other verses.

When Adam ate the fruit, his human spirit died "on the day" he ate.  So in procreation, all humans are born physically alive and spiritually dead.  That corrupts the person, and is the reason everyone needs to be "born again" or "regenerated".  That speaks of the dead human spirit.  When a person believes in Christ, their dead human spirit is 'made alive', 'born again' or 'regenerated' again.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

But, according to Romans 6, death ends sin (v.6). So for a man to die AGAIN he needs the "sin" (singular) - Adam's nature - to be imparted into him. God would have to authorize a sin nature since the man is not born by seed, but by resurrection.

I was following this until the very last part.  Man is "born by seed".  I don't understand where 'resurrection' is involved in man's birth.  Please expand.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Thus, for a man to die again God would have to impute evil - a doctrine that is neither taught nor supported by scripture.

Nope.  It is the unbeliever's mortal body that will die again (second death) when cast into the LOF.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Thus, Hebrews 9:27 is correct without exception.

That verse only states that everyone is appointed to die once.  It doesn't say "only once".  Those who trust in Christ won't die again.  But all who refuse to believe will physically die again.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

The Second Death is not at all like physical death (see Matthew 10:28), so it cannot be part of the argument.

I believe it is.  In fact, that is the only explanation that makes sense to me.  We know that all unbelievers will be resurrected.  Certainly their resurrection will not be like what believers will experience.  Believers will receive a glorified immortal body like Jesus' resurrection body.

Rom 6:5 - For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.

Phil 3:21 - who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

We are agreed about heaven and naked. But in your first posting to me you stated that the dead are in heaven and come with the Lord to get their bodies which "Rise". That means that they were naked all the time in heaven, or ...

Or . . . we just don't know the "status" of these souls in heaven.  We will understand when we enter eternity.  😊

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

2nd Corinthians 5 is difficult because in this life we "groan" in our bodies. In death we are naked, but we still groan because that is NOT the normal state.

Seems Paul was using "groan" in the sense of wanting our resurrection bodies.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

You correctly said that we get our new bodies  "when He comes ...". That means that we groan for centuries (Abraham has been naked for 4,000 years). But 2,000 of those years are "Paradise". How can the occupants of Paradise "groan".

I don't know.  Paul could have been using "dramatic" language for emphasis.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

But you gave verses 6 and 8. Let us examine them. They say that if we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord. But your body is missing. Being with the Lord cannot be physical.

I think it still physical.  Not in the "life on earth" sense, but in the REAL sense.  Our souls are real but immaterial.  Yet, John saw "souls under the altar" in Rev 6, so that shows that they can be seen and heard (they were singing).  There's lots we cannot understand until we get there.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

But then you get a body and this removes you from His presence. How?

Paul was contrasting the status of being either physically dead and with the Lord, or physically alive and "absent from the Lord".  Since Jesus is in heaven, and we are on earth, we are "absent from the Lord".  But, when we die, we will be "absent from the body" but "at home with the Lord".

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

The reason is that men worshiped God in the past at a special place. The Samaritan at Mt. Gerezim, the Jews at Mt. Moriah. But God refuses this worship now as He wants worship IN THE SPIRIT (Jn.4:24). Because Gerezim and Moriah are PLACES, the human spirit must be a place. Man is a Tabernacle (or Temple) and so is made of three parts.

John 4:24 is very important.  Jesus explained to the woman the need for a living functional human spirit with which to worship God.  And truth, which means the proper WAY to worship Him.  That is why everyone needs to be born again.  They need their dead human spirit to be made alive and functional.

Adam was created trichotomous: body, soul and human spirit.  Humans are born dichotomous:  body and soul and a dead human spirit.  

When a person believes in Christ they become trichotomous, like Adam was created.  In fact Paul says those "in Christ" are a "new creation".  I think that is what he was referring to.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

That is, for a dead man to worship correctly AND to be WITH the Lord, he must be IN HADES.

I don't understand this.  John 4:24 says we need a living human spirit and truth.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

In heaven is the Lord BODILY, but that was the very reason He went away and sent the Spirit. Correct worship of the dead is possible only from HADES. Why?

I don't understand "worship of the dead".  The "dead" are dead in body only.  For believers, their souls are with the Lord.  For unbelievers, their souls are in Hades.  And they don't worship the Lord because they don't have living spirits.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Because the dead are UNCLEAN and God will not have fellowship with the NAKED.

I couldn't help but remember that the Lord had full fellowship with the newly minted Adam and Eve, who were both naked.  So I disagree with your statement.

There is a difference between sin and nakedness, which it seems you have conflated.

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I think I have written enough. It is just for your review. You don't have t answer if you don't want to.

I have thoroughly enjoyed our discussions!  I love to learn why people believe what they do.  

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Go well.

(P.S. Not proof read. Could be spelling mistakes)

spoiler alert!??  lol  😁

[Locust]

not so sure how a spirit body gets raptured . personally you's guys get a bit to  excited about some one being taken to heaven when your selves remain here on earth as flesh and bone. 

[Edward429451]

On 1/20/2025 at 1:15 PM, BornAgain490 said:

My point is this: pretribbers in the west believe Christians will be gone before it gets as bad as it is in the Congo,  Nigeria,  Middle East-Asia, North Korea, and other places.  When the mark of the beast comes, pretribbets will not be prepared because they think they'll be gone before the antichrist is revealed.  That is when we great falling away from faith takes place.

That's an awful lot of assumptions. I don't feel that way. I hope that way! So I hope for the best and prepare for the worst, just in case. Christians have been persecuted for 1000's of years so I couldn't think that I wont get persecuted somehow somewhere. I'm no better than anyone else. 

The word rapture isnt in scripture. The word Trinity is not in scripture. The word Grandfather is not in scripture! So that doesn't mean that they arent true and real. So we should be careful not to be short-sighted. 

 

Because what happens if you miss the rapture and it was true and then you now it because half your church is gone, how would that make you feel? You had the choice to be watching and be ready. Plus just in case I'm wrong, I'm fairly well armed and may just give them a good fight. I dont seem to have a martyrs heart yet, lol. Besides, you never know if and when God might say to you, hey walk out there and face that giant and I'll be with you...?!! So it's good to be armed, just in case. 

I had one guy one time try to say that the fact that I carry a pistol is a testimony of my lack of faith in God...And I knew the answer immediately and that he was wrong. That's the sort of thing that people that dont know a whole lot about guns tend to say. As if, guns have magic bullets, and that couldnt be further from the truth! All pistols (until you get to the Magnums) have very feeble stopping power, and rifles are only marginally more. Guns leave a lot of space free for a Faith in God!! Humans usually go down pretty easy, that's why 9mm's and under are very popular though chancy. Having a 9mm against a Goliath is akin to a sling and stone! 

After all, the Israelites wore swords as they were building their walls!