Unravelling Revelation

[Locust]

54 minutes ago, abcdef said:

The 2 witnesses are the believing children of Israel in the kingdom/church who return to restore Jerusalem in 1967.

nope not even close

[abcdef]

26 minutes ago, Locust said:

nope not even close

Show me.

[abcdef]

On 2/22/2025 at 11:44 AM, Deborah_ said:

Now that's a big assumption, and I don't share it.

Think about the context of the Revelation in relation to the other books and letters.

There is one theme through the Bible and that would be the children of Israel. 

Beginning in Genesis and throughout the OT scriptures the attention is centered on  Israel, exclusively. The gentile nations and their interactions are shown, but the gentile nations are not the center of the narratives. 

The 4 gospels continue this theme of following the flesh children of Israel. The gospels end without any being centered on the gentile nations, it is still Israel only. 

It is not until Acts that the gentiles are allowed into the gospel kingdom. At that time, years after the gospel kingdom began, that the gentiles were accepted. Until that time, the kingdom was exclusively the children of Israel. It could be that there were 100's of thousands of Israel in the gospel kingdom at that time.

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My point is that these 100's of thousands of Israel in the kingdom remain the center of the Revelation and the center is not the gentile side of the kingdom/church.

This change in viewpoint allows for a different interpretation of the prophecies.

One example would be the 2 witnesses. The 2 witnesses are seen outside Jerusalem while the gentiles trample the city.

If the 2 witnesses were gentiles, then they would not be excluded from Jerusalem and wear sackcloth.

This makes a distinction between the gentiles and the children of Israel as the 2 witnesses.

Since these 2  witnesses are faithful, they can only be the children of Israel who are in the gospel kingdom that began on Pentecost.

It shows that the idea the the witnesses being primarily the gentile side of the kingdom is not confirmed.

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The Revelation is centered on the children of Israel. The faithful in the gospel kingdom are shown as the 2 witnesses and the Rev 12 woman. The unfaithful of Israel as the seals/trumpets and the Rev 17 woman under Rome. 

 

[Deborah_]

46 minutes ago, abcdef said:

My point is that these 100's of thousands of Israel in the kingdom remain the center of the Revelation and the center is not the gentile side of the kingdom/church.

I think we shall just have to disagree.

[Locust]

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

Show me.

the mistake is thinking it is somebody. there are no names associated with the act of giving a witness.

in the law given to Israel there had to be two agreeing witness  to make it a legal testimony in court .

Deut 19:15“No single witness may convict another for any error or any sin that he may commit. On the testimony of two witnesses or on the testimony of three witnesses the matter should be established.

 

Rev 11:3 ''I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy for 1,260 days dressed in sackcloth''    would be a legal action.

Revelation 11:3 speaks of two witnesses who would prophesy for 1,260 days. The account then says that the wild beast would “conquer them and kill them.” But after “three and a half days,” these two witnesses would be brought back to life, much to the amazement of all onlookers.—Rev. 11:7, 11.

1260 days is 3 years each year having 360 days.. 

 

[Locust]

''these two witnesses would be brought back to life, much to the amazement of all onlookers.''

has already happened 

[AdHoc]

On 2/24/2025 at 9:21 PM, truth7t7 said:

The response was to "Locust" not you

You continually give your wild  explanations not found in scripture, you deny Jesus returns in fire and final judgment and falsely claim Jesus returns in pomp and glory to set up a millennial kingdom on this earth 100% "False"!

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV

2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV

6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV

3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV

5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV

15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV

5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This is what you have not considered:

1. my posting on Hebrews 1:11. You had no answer. The works done on earth, its garment, will be purged.

2. the word "New" means "Renewed" or "Made pristine"

3. the "DAY of the Lord", within the context, is 1,000 years. It your responsibility to research which "day" is meant. Peter is writing to the circumcision (Gal.2). They know the times of God.  A period of Messianic dominion follow by the "Renewed heaven and earth" (Isa.66). You give THE thousand years (6 times) a metaphorical and mystic meaning, but the day IN WHICH is the resurrection and purging of the earth, is suddenly literal.

4. how can it be that in Isaiah 60:9 there is a recovery of Israelites by ships when you say the New Earth is here without a sea. Or is the recovery of Israel found among the prophets metaphorical?

5  the evidence that THE Thousand years is literal is overwhelming. There is no reason to make it not mean what it says. The metaphorical application means God purposely mislead us. Why mention a metaphorical thousand years as the time of Satan's imprisonment when he is not imprisoned?

6. It is no good bringing verse after verse of God's judgment by fire. Korah was judged by fire but it did nothing to the earth. I suggest you only bring verses that plainly say that the earth is annihilated by fire. Remember to include those that have the fate of believers if heaven is annihilated. And remember to explain why scripture says that the earth shall be "changed". You have it ceasing to exist.

7. that if you want to discount brother Scofield's argument because of his sins, you will have to discount Peter for denying the Lord and being untrue to the gospel, and you will have to discount Paul for the murder of Christians AND for refusing the Holy Spirit's instruction, via the Church, not to go down to Jerusalem. Scofield might be wrong, but to claim truth only for the sinless is vain.

Notwithstanding our differences, I have enjoyed our exchange, and hope that some others profited. Go well

[AdHoc]

On 2/26/2025 at 4:59 PM, Dennis1209 said:

I view the Two Witnesses, the 144,000, and the flying angels “eternal gospel” (last chance) of the first 3.5 years of the tribulation.

There are difficulties with that. But these beliefs, I admit, are widely held.

From my point of view (and like all men, I could be wrong), the Tribulation is only 3.5 years. Daniel's last "seven" is 7 years, but the first half is the Beast "strengthening THE Covenant ... " with Israel (Daniel's People). There is only one Covenant with the daily oblation in it - the Covenant of Law of Sinai. It is only half way through this that the Beast bans all religion and sets himself up in the Holy of Holies. That is, from 0 to 3.5 years there is genuine worship according to Law in Jerusalem.

The judgment of 3.5 years without rain is that of Elijah. It was a judgment for idolatry. That means there is no need for a Witness with the spirit of Elijah UNTIL the Beast occupies the Holy of Holies - the second half of Daniel's week.

The 144,000 are sealed to survive the Great Tribulation (Rev.9:4). This, as explained above, is the second half of Daniel's last week. That is, they are probably sealed well into the first half when there is no threat. Or, stated otherwise, there is no threat in the first 3.5 years.

The Beast will command universal worship. This cannot go together with "strengthening the Covenant" (lit Heb.) that contains the daily oblation. It must take place in the second half of Daniel's Week.

All pointers are that the crisis of Israel with the Beast is the second half of Daniel's final seven. The first half will be according to Law and ordinances with no need for Witnesses nor judgment.

[truth7t7]

4 hours ago, abcdef said:

Show me.

The (Two Witnesses) Revelation 11:3-12 Will Be Literal Prophets Returned, In Literal Physical Bodies

The (Two Witnesses) will be literal prophets returned, that bring literal plagues upon this literal earth, they have physical bodies that die, that lay in a literal street, as a literal world watches in celebration of their deaths

You will closely note below, the two olive branches and golden pipes represent that seen in Revelation 5:8 & 15:5-8 below, the 7 golden (vials/pipes) in last plagues will be emptied upon the world through the (Two Witnesses) who have all power over the literal plagues seen in the Revelation

You will closely note these two anointed ones empty the golden oil out of "Themselves"

The "Golden Oil" represents the "Golden Vials" full of the seven last plagues

Zechariah 4:11-14KJV

11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Revelation 5:8KJV

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 15:5-8KJV

5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

You will closely note that the (Two Witnesses) stand before God of the earth in verse 4 below, also seen in Zechariah 4:14 above

You will closely note that the (Two Witnesses) have literal power over the literal plagues upon the world, they have physical bodies that die, and lay in a literal street, as a  literal world watches in celebration

Revelation 11:3-12KJV

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

[truth7t7]

4 hours ago, abcdef said:

Show me.

God's "Two Witnesses" Rule The World During The Future Great Tribulation

Many put the future (Man Of Sin) (The Beast) as the ruler of earth during the 3.5 year tribulation "wrong"!

It will be God's (Two Witnesses) that rule in bringing all plagues in torturing the evil world, a literal remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, God's in control!

Revelation 11:3-6 & 10KJV

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The Future (Two Witnesses) "All Plagues" As Often As They Will Representing "God" 

Revelation 16:1-11KJV

1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.

6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.