Unravelling Revelation

[AdHoc]

On 3/6/2025 at 12:56 PM, truth7t7 said:

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?

2.) Physical Earthly Throne?

3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day

Revelation 20:1-6KJV

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

On 3/6/2025 at 1:23 PM, truth7t7 said:

It's amazing how you "Disregard" the words (Then Cometh The End) because it destroys your teaching of a literal millennial kingdom on this earth at the return of Jesus Christ, there isn't a kingdom on earth between verses 23-24 below and you know this, Jesus returns (Then Cometh The End)

You wander off into the last enemy to be destroyed is death as if it's "After" the false claim of a 1,000 year kingdom on this earth, yet you fail to post the complete context of 1 Corinthians Chapter 15 "Why"?

Verses 52-54 clearly shows at the "Last Trump" earthly mortal bodies obtain immortality at the resurrection, at this time as verse 54 clearly teaches (Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory) the (Last Enemy Death) is "Destroyed" (Then Cometh The End) and yes this is at the future coming of Jesus Christ, your Millennial Kingdom on this earth doesn't exist in scripture

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 52-54KJV

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

 

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

You deny the grammar of the Holy Spirit, and you deny His style of prophecy. If I wrote the following; "At the Superbowl 59 Philadelphia scored 6 points and then came the end", you would find no fault with it because Phili scored 6 points in the last quarter. I would be correct but i would not have told the whole story how they scored 40 points in total.

Now my example might be poor, but 1st Corinthians 15:21-26 does just that. It is recording the sequence, or "order" of resurrection. Christ first, then "those who are His AT HIS COMING". Now, that sentence implies that there are some who ARE NOT HIS and it also implies THAT THEIR RESURRECTION IS NOT "When He comes". But verse 22 has assured us that ALL men will be resurrected, so by simple logic, those who are NOT His must be resurrected at later date.

So the phrase "then comes the end" sets forth an undetermined period that these men remain in Hades and then comes the end. The end is defined when "Death is defeated" and that we know is after Satan, who has the power of death, is given over to the Lake of Fire - NOT when he is imprisoned for a (the) thousand years.

Whether you accept the thousand years imprisonment or not dos not annul God's Word that Satan is first bound and imprisoned and then let loose and then stirs up a rebellion AND THEN is cast into the Lake of Fire. There is no other way to understand this but that there is a gap between the resurrection "of those who are His" and the White Throne. Whether or not you give God's value of THE Thousand Years, or you suck a value out of your thumb, the fact is there is a gap.

And by the way, if scripture gives DIFFERENT TRUMPETS we must adhere to WHO they are for. In 1st Thessalonians and 1st Corinthians 15 the CHURCH is addressed. They have their LAST TRUMPET when they are gathered. They will never be gathered again. But Israel will feast the feats of Trumpets for 1000 years - annually. So in Matthew 24:31, when Israel are gathered, it is NOT the LAST TRUMPET.

If scripture makes a difference we are to study why.

[AdHoc]

On 3/6/2025 at 12:56 PM, truth7t7 said:

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?

2.) Physical Earthly Throne?

3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Physical EARTHLY Kingdom in Daniel 2:34-35 and Revelation 11:15
Physical EARTHLY throne in Matthew 25:31-46. Unless "ALL Nations" go to heaven
Physical mortal people because a man who DIES at a hundred is reckoned as a baby (Isaiah 65:20). This is in context of verse 17 - a newly created earth. The word "new (chadash - Heb) means "renewed" or  a "new king in a line of kings". Since there is no death on the New Earth of Revelation 20, it must refer to the "regeneration" of Matthew 19:28 - when the Apostles are ruling Israel by Tribe.

[truth7t7]

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

You deny the grammar of the Holy Spirit, and you deny His style of prophecy. If I wrote the following; "At the Superbowl 59 Philadelphia scored 6 points and then came the end", you would find no fault with it because Phili scored 6 points in the last quarter. I would be correct but i would not have told the whole story how they scored 40 points in total.

Now my example might be poor, but 1st Corinthians 15:21-26 does just that. It is recording the sequence, or "order" of resurrection. Christ first, then "those who are His AT HIS COMING". Now, that sentence implies that there are some who ARE NOT HIS and it also implies THAT THEIR RESURRECTION IS NOT "When He comes". But verse 22 has assured us that ALL men will be resurrected, so by simple logic, those who are NOT His must be resurrected at later date.

So the phrase "then comes the end" sets forth an undetermined period that these men remain in Hades and then comes the end. The end is defined when "Death is defeated" and that we know is after Satan, who has the power of death, is given over to the Lake of Fire - NOT when he is imprisoned for a (the) thousand years.

Whether you accept the thousand years imprisonment or not dos not annul God's Word that Satan is first bound and imprisoned and then let loose and then stirs up a rebellion AND THEN is cast into the Lake of Fire. There is no other way to understand this but that there is a gap between the resurrection "of those who are His" and the White Throne. Whether or not you give God's value of THE Thousand Years, or you suck a value out of your thumb, the fact is there is a gap.

And by the way, if scripture gives DIFFERENT TRUMPETS we must adhere to WHO they are for. In 1st Thessalonians and 1st Corinthians 15 the CHURCH is addressed. They have their LAST TRUMPET when they are gathered. They will never be gathered again. But Israel will feast the feats of Trumpets for 1000 years - annually. So in Matthew 24:31, when Israel are gathered, it is NOT the LAST TRUMPET.

If scripture makes a difference we are to study why.

Many just don't want to let go of their little pet 1,000 year kingdom on this earth that doesn't exist in scripture

Paul clearly taught that when Jesus returns the resurrection of the dead takes place, (Then Cometh The End) its that simple (The End) not a 1,000 year kingdom on this earth as many "Falsely" claim

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The scripture above is in perfect agreement with Jesus being revealed in fire and brimstone as seen below (Then Cometh The End) as all the unsaved wicked are destroyed at the Lord's return

(Destroyed Them All)

Luke 17:29-30KJV

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

The resurrection of "All" is seen below and the wicked are judged to eternal damnation, this is when the "Final Judgement" takes place (The End)

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 Jesus clearly taught that the resurrection of "All" takes place on "The Last Day" this is in perfect agreement with the scripture above

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

[truth7t7]

8 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Physical EARTHLY throne in Matthew 25:31-46. 

"False"

Matthew 25:31-46 is nothing more than a parable of the Great White Throne Judgement using sheep/goats speaking to herdsmen

Yes verse 46 concludes in everlasting punishment and eternal life, good try no cigar on your earthly Millennial Kingdom "Next"!

Matthew 25:41-46KJV

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Edited March 8 by truth7t7

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Many just don't want to let go of their little pet 1,000 year kingdom on this earth that doesn't exist in scripture

Paul clearly taught that when Jesus returns the resurrection of the dead takes place, (Then Cometh The End) its that simple (The End) not a 1,000 year kingdom on this earth as many "Falsely" claim

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The scripture above is in perfect agreement with Jesus being revealed in fire and brimstone as seen below (Then Cometh The End) as all the unsaved wicked are destroyed at the Lord's return

(Destroyed Them All)

Luke 17:29-30KJV

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

The resurrection of "All" is seen below and the wicked are judged to eternal damnation, this is when the "Final Judgement" takes place (The End)

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 Jesus clearly taught that the resurrection of "All" takes place on "The Last Day" this is in perfect agreement with the scripture above

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Here are your mistakes:
You have no respect for the councils of God. He said that He made man for subduing and ruling THE EARTH. You deny that He is capable of this.

You were unable to counter the scriptures I gave. You dismissed them without a case. Anybody can do this.

Your statement "is nothing more than ... " shows what you think of scripture that doesn't fit your scheme.

Our Lord Jesus does not come with fire and brimstone. He comes as lightning. he does not destroy the earth but sends angels to collect Israel.

You ignore or manipulate grammar to suit your theory. 1st Corinthians 15:24 says; 

24 Then cometh the end, WHEN he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The end only comes WHEN .... and verse 25 starts with "FOR" - giving the REASON. He must SUBDUE, REIGN,  and the condition of the "end" is all men resurrected. This you blatantly leave out.

The word "destroy" does not mean "annihilate". It means "lack of well-being" (Vine).

In John 5 you wrest the grammar again. The word "all" does not pertain to all men. It pertains to ALL IN THE GRAVE. It is a certain "hour" when those left in the grave shall rise.

In John 6 you ignore the word "AT". You failed to define "DAY". If you had taken it as a thousand years you would suddenly agree with dozen other scriptures. If there are twenty things happening in a day in scripture and there is obviously not enough time for it all, then you must discover WHICH DAY IS MEANT.

You deny God's Word to Abraham which says that the Good Land of Canaan would be theirs "for an everlasting possession".

 

[truth7t7]

33 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Here are your mistakes:
You have no respect for the councils of God.

It's my observations and opinion that your very own words apply to yourself

Jesus Is The Lord

[Deborah_]

Revelation 22:6-21

We have now arrived at New Jerusalem, where “we will all live happily ever after.” There’s nothing more to add; we now know all that we need to know to sustain us on our journey.

Some prophetic revelations were not for immediate consumption, but were recorded for future generations for whom they would be relevant (see Daniel 12:4). But Revelation doesn’t fall into that category (verse 10); it is for us and for now, because the last days have arrived! Even now, we are by our choices and our actions determining our final destiny. But once we arrive at the gates of New Jerusalem, our choice becomes final. From that point, we will continue along the trajectory we have established - either to eternal glory inside the city, or to eternal shame outside it.

So shall we be dreading Christ’s return, or looking forward to it? Jesus is the Judge to whom all will have to give account - the Creator of space and time, the Eternal One (Isaiah 48:12). At His command all things began, and by His command all things will be wound up and brought to their conclusion.

But the overall message of Revelation is one of hope. The whole human race was barred from Paradise because of Adam’s rebellion (Genesis 3:24). But now the way has been re-opened! The only difference between the sinners who are ‘inside’ and the sinners who are ‘outside’ is that the former have been forgiven, and are accounted righteous through Christ’s death. Those who have spurned this offer and are determined to cling to their sinful ways will be excluded forever. Cut off from God’s presence and from the tree of life, they will die (though, like Adam, not necessarily immediately). The choice is ours! The invitation to join in is issued, through the Church, to the whole world. Anyone and everyone can come and share these blessings! No-one will be forced to come against their will; and no-one will be turned away. The only entry requirement is desire; the only disqualification is pride. Eternal life can be ours - if we want it.

Revelation ends with a solemn warning for anyone who dares tamper with its message. This applies only to the book of Revelation; but it’s probably no accident that it also comes at the end of the whole Bible. God has nothing more to say; and so the canon of Scripture is closed. All we have to do now is wait for Jesus to return - which could be at any time. So let us, by God’s grace, repent now; tomorrow may be too late.

[abcdef]

On 2/21/2025 at 4:21 PM, Deborah_ said:

Now we come to the first of a series of 7 visions. If there is an overall theme, it seems to be the conflict between God and Satan that rumbles through the universe - and the choice that we have to make between them.

Revelation 11:19-12:17

In Israel’s religious calendar, the Feast of Trumpets was followed by the Day of Atonement (when the sanctuary was opened). After the blowing of all the trumpets, John is able to see into the heavenly temple (of which the earthly temple in Jerusalem was a copy), right into the Most Holy Place. The Ark of the Covenant symbolised God’s holy presence; but it was also the focal point of His mercy and grace. As such, it forms the context for a series of seven visions, which explain the nature of the conflict between good and evil that characterises our present age.

The first of these visions (Revelation 12) is a re-telling of the Christmas story from a heavenly viewpoint. The woman is the nation of Israel; the twelve stars stand for the twelve tribes (see Genesis 37:9,10). As a descendant of Eve (see Genesis 3:15), she suffers what the Jews called ‘the birth pains of the Messiah’ - the centuries of anguish endured by Israel as she waited for the coming of her King (see Micah 5:3; Isaiah 26:17). For she has a terrifying and immensely powerful Enemy: Satan, the dragon, whose evil intention is to frustrate God’s purposes. All through history he has tried to corrupt and destroy God’s people, and he also tried to destroy the Messiah who came from Israel. In earthly history, this has been manifested in many ways, from Pharaoh trying to kill baby Moses (Exodus 1:22) to Herod trying to kill baby Jesus (Matthew 2:13). And who could be more vulnerable than a pregnant woman and a new-born baby? But Satan was foiled: Jesus escaped premature death, completed His mission and went back into heaven. The Jews, having fulfilled their main purpose, were once again forced into exile - but are still under God’s care and protection.

The earthly conflict has its counterpart in heaven, where war has been raging between the devil’s army and the army of God under the command of the archangel Michael (the guardian of God’s people). The dragon was the one who initiated the Great Rebellion in the beginning (Genesis 3:1). But from the moment of Jesus’ death, he and all his followers (both angelic and human) have been on the defensive. And when the Lamb ascended triumphantly to heaven, Satan was forced to descend unceremoniously to earth! (John 12:31) He is now barred from access to God’s throne room and can no longer accuse God’s people (see Zechariah 3:1,2; Romans 8:33,34). Christ’s death has robbed Satan of his power, by removing the basis for his accusations (Colossians 2:13-15).

And we’re not just passive spectators; we also participate in Satan’s overthrow, by putting our faith in Jesus and standing firm against the devil’s attacks. We may be persecuted; we may be martyred; but our salvation is utterly secure! And so we’re already able to celebrate Christ’s great victory, even while we continue to suffer in this life. For although Satan and his hosts have been comprehensively defeated in the heavenly realms, the war on earth is not yet over. Satan can still wreak havoc in this world; and his rage is all the greater because he knows that he can’t win

 

On 2/21/2025 at 4:21 PM, Deborah_ said:

Meanwhile, Israel disappears into the wilderness for the duration of the Gospel age.

Israel disappears into the gentile wilderness for the duration of the times of the gentiles, Lk 21:24. Then Israel returns to control Jerusalem and the times of the gentile trampling ends. 70 AD-1967.

We are living in the time after the faithful woman Israel has returned to restore Jerusalem.

 

On 2/21/2025 at 4:21 PM, Deborah_ said:

It’s a place of testing, but also a place of supernatural provision - and relative safety. And she hasn’t been abandoned by God; in fact, it’s there that she will eventually re-discover Him (see Hosea 2:14,15). Satan continues to wage war against the Jewish people, but finds his attempts to destroy them continually frustrated. He therefore concentrates his efforts on persecuting Christians.

Seldom do I find a person who I would agree with 100 %. This is close, say 99%.

The Rev 12 events are clear and can be dated. 

The Roman dragon/beast invades Israel, 63 BC.

Jesus is born, 1 AD.

Jesus ascends to heaven 33 AD.

War in heaven, 33 AD,

The day of Pentecost, 33 AD. Satan is thrown down. It is the day the gospel kingdom came and salvation came.

The faithful of Israel flee into the gentile nations, 70 AD ish.

The times of the gentile trampling of Jerusalem, 70 AD-1967.

1967, The times of the gentiles ends.

All history now for 57 years.

----

[Deborah_]

8 hours ago, abcdef said:

Seldom do I find a person who I would agree with 100 %. This is close, say 99%.

I think this is the main difference:

You believe that Israel's return is a physical one, in 1967.

I believe that it's a spiritual return which is yet to happen (Romans 11:25,26).

[abcdef]

6 hours ago, Deborah_ said:

I think this is the main difference:

You believe that Israel's return is a physical one, in 1967.

"The present age is 'the times of the Gentiles' (see Revelation 11:2), and Jerusalem will not be returned to her people until the age nears its end."

This is a quote from your website about Lk 21:20-24, 24.

-----

There a a few more passages that confirm the restoration of Jerusalem to Israel, Rev 12 for example. What happens to the faithful woman when her time in the wilderness is ended? She returns to Jerusalem and restores it to Israel.

The real difference is one of timeline viewpoint.

My opinion is that we are past the point where Jerusalem has been restored  and the times of the gentiles is over and has been over since 1967.

What happens after Jerusalem is restored is the time period that we are in now.

What happens after Jerusalem is restored?

 

6 hours ago, Deborah_ said:

I believe that it's a spiritual return which is yet to happen (Romans 11:25,26).

Which viewpoint do you stand by? Material restoration from your website or spiritual return?

-------

There are 10's of thousands of Israel who are Christians in the land of Israel today.

Some look for a national conversion of a country, but I believe that the Bible does not teach that. 

I believe that the majority of Israel will continue reject Jesus and because of that this present restored Jerusalem will fall.