Unravelling Revelation

[Deborah_]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

A "SCROLL" is a document that opens as you unroll it. It is impossible to reveal its total contents in one go.

Well said!

And now for the contents of the scroll...

Revelation 6:1-8:1

When Jesus went to Nazareth and read from the scroll of Isaiah in the synagogue, He was fulfilling the words of the prophet even as He spoke them (Luke 4:21). In a similar way, as He opens and reads this heavenly scroll (which contains God’s purposes for the ‘last days’, the time between Christ’s ascension and His return), its contents are brought to pass - and John sees them as a series of visions.

The seven seals follow a pattern that is repeated in several places in Revelation. The first four form a group; they have much in common, and are probably happening simultaneously. The next two are somewhat different in nature, the sixth clearly describing the Day of Judgement. The final seal is what happens after the Last Judgement, when the victory over evil has finally been won.

The breaking of the first four seals reveals the famous “four horsemen of the Apocalypse’ - Conquest, War, Famine and Death. These forces have been raging through the world for the whole of the last two millennia. They cause much suffering, but this is inevitable - these are the birth-pangs of the new age (Mark 13:8).

The fifth seal reveals the martyrs who have laid down their lives for God and His truth, whose blood has been poured out as an offering to God (see II Timothy 4:6). They appeal to God, the Judge, for vindication - for proof that they have not died in vain. But they must wait for the world’s iniquity to be complete before they can inherit the earth - just as the Israelites had to wait for the iniquity of the Amorites to be complete before they could inherit their land (Genesis 15:16). Thus we are warned that persecution and martyrdom will continue for as long as this age lasts; but we are also reassured that God remains in control.

When the sixth seal is broken, the Day of the Lord arrives! The entire universe will be convulsed, and the very fabric of the earth will disintegrate. So those who have lived in a state of rebellion against God will be reduced to a state of utter terror; they will attempt to run and hide, but there will be nowhere for them to go!

But before the seventh seal is broken, John is shown the same events from a different perspective (chapter 7), to provide him (and us) with some reassurance about the fate of God’s people during these turbulent times. First he sees a tidal wave of judgement (the four winds are probably equivalent to the four horsemen) about to engulf the world - but it will be delayed until the righteous can be protected. For God is never indiscriminate in His judgements; He will spare those who belong to Him. who display His mark of ownership (see Ezekiel 9:3-6). That mark, or seal, is the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13,14). And we who are sealed are also counted, to ensure that none will be lost! Like the original twelve tribes in the wilderness (see Numbers 1), we are counted as soldiers ready to go into battle - a vast spiritual army, commissioned to invade and conquer the nations!

144,000 is, of course, a symbolic number! In reality, as John is now shown (Revelation 7:9), we are a vast multi-ethnic multitude! He sees God’s people at the very end of their pilgrimage, as they celebrate their final gathering together in the great fulfilment of the Feast of Tabernacles. They have battled through temptation and persecution, and remained faithful; they have been cleansed from sin and made holy by the blood of Christ; and they are now safely home in the loving embrace of their heavenly Father.

When at last the final seal is broken (Revelation 8:1), it reveals… nothing. For the scroll was about the history of this present world, which was brought to an end with seal number six, and after that there will be no more world history! But the pause is a pregnant one. God is about to put His Word into effect, to act upon His promises - but first He offers all mankind the opportunity to repent. So we must all urgently consider what our response is going to be…

[The Light]

3 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

"False" the unsaved world will be "Deceived" by the false prophet calling fire down from heaven into taking the mark, it won't be forced as many falsely believe and teach 

Revelation 19:20KJV

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

 

The great tribulation is Satan killing believers that will not take the mark. '

Why is my statement false??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

 

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Deborah_ said:

Well said!

And now for the contents of the scroll...

Revelation 6:1-8:1

When Jesus went to Nazareth and read from the scroll of Isaiah in the synagogue, He was fulfilling the words of the prophet even as He spoke them (Luke 4:21). In a similar way, as He opens and reads this heavenly scroll (which contains God’s purposes for the ‘last days’, the time between Christ’s ascension and His return), its contents are brought to pass - and John sees them as a series of visions.

The seven seals follow a pattern that is repeated in several places in Revelation. The first four form a group; they have much in common, and are probably happening simultaneously. The next two are somewhat different in nature, the sixth clearly describing the Day of Judgement. The final seal is what happens after the Last Judgement, when the victory over evil has finally been won.

The breaking of the first four seals reveals the famous “four horsemen of the Apocalypse’ - Conquest, War, Famine and Death. These forces have been raging through the world for the whole of the last two millennia. They cause much suffering, but this is inevitable - these are the birth-pangs of the new age (Mark 13:8).

The fifth seal reveals the martyrs who have laid down their lives for God and His truth, whose blood has been poured out as an offering to God (see II Timothy 4:6). They appeal to God, the Judge, for vindication - for proof that they have not died in vain. But they must wait for the world’s iniquity to be complete before they can inherit the earth - just as the Israelites had to wait for the iniquity of the Amorites to be complete before they could inherit their land (Genesis 15:16). Thus we are warned that persecution and martyrdom will continue for as long as this age lasts; but we are also reassured that God remains in control.

When the sixth seal is broken, the Day of the Lord arrives! The entire universe will be convulsed, and the very fabric of the earth will disintegrate. So those who have lived in a state of rebellion against God will be reduced to a state of utter terror; they will attempt to run and hide, but there will be nowhere for them to go!

But before the seventh seal is broken, John is shown the same events from a different perspective (chapter 7), to provide him (and us) with some reassurance about the fate of God’s people during these turbulent times. First he sees a tidal wave of judgement (the four winds are probably equivalent to the four horsemen) about to engulf the world - but it will be delayed until the righteous can be protected. For God is never indiscriminate in His judgements; He will spare those who belong to Him. who display His mark of ownership (see Ezekiel 9:3-6). That mark, or seal, is the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13,14). And we who are sealed are also counted, to ensure that none will be lost! Like the original twelve tribes in the wilderness (see Numbers 1), we are counted as soldiers ready to go into battle - a vast spiritual army, commissioned to invade and conquer the nations!

144,000 is, of course, a symbolic number! In reality, as John is now shown (Revelation 7:9), we are a vast multi-ethnic multitude! He sees God’s people at the very end of their pilgrimage, as they celebrate their final gathering together in the great fulfilment of the Feast of Tabernacles. They have battled through temptation and persecution, and remained faithful; they have been cleansed from sin and made holy by the blood of Christ; and they are now safely home in the loving embrace of their heavenly Father.

When at last the final seal is broken (Revelation 8:1), it reveals… nothing. For the scroll was about the history of this present world, which was brought to an end with seal number six, and after that there will be no more world history! But the pause is a pregnant one. God is about to put His Word into effect, to act upon His promises - but first He offers all mankind the opportunity to repent. So we must all urgently consider what our response is going to be…

We are not far apart. Just some detail.

What strikes me is how elegantly our Lord can deal with complex scenes with pictures. I mean, God had a fourfold plan with man and He can take a City to show His plan's consummation.

God desired to show His glory - the City has the glory of God
God wanted a "help" meet (up to the standard of) for men. The City is a Bride for the Chiefest of men - Jesus
God wanted a Temple, or dwelling on earth - the City is a Tabernacle
God wanted to subdue and rule the earth - the City is ruler

But God wanted fellowship with man in a separate and holy area - so the Church is the wall and Israel are the Gates.

God dwelt in the Holy of Holies of both Tabernacle and Temple. This was a cube. So is New Jerusalem a cube.

[The Light]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The Great Tribulation is the worst thing that would ever happen since the world began. If it consists of saints being killed, why that started with Stephen. But if it is God's response to men placing an imposter in the Temple and supernatural disasters kill Jews and Gentiles, over the WHOLE EARTH, the it is GOD'S VENGEANCE. 

The great tribulation is Satan killing believers. Specifically for the most part it is Satan killing the seed of the woman the 12 tribes across the earth. He can't get to the woman, Israel, as they have fled to a place of protection so he goes after her seed who keep the commandments of God and at that time have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 12

¹⁷ And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

The vengeance for the martyrs in Chapter 6 is a threat against their persecutors. The seven Trumpets do not kill saints but "men". If the Tribulation was to kill saints how does such a great company survive in Chapter 7. 

What great company survives in Chapter 7?

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

If the 1260 days of the Dragons "flood" in Revelation 12 is the Great Tribulation, why, it is because he was "WROTH". But his killing spree is thwarted by "the earth which helped the woman". Look at the grammar of Matthew 24;

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The word "FOR" means "because of". It is "because of" The Abomination of Desolation that the Tribulation comes upon the whole earth and will be worse that Noah's flood. 

The Abomination of Desolation is a sign for the woman Israel to flee. She is protected from the dragon. The dragon goes after the Jews around the world which is the seed of the woman.

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I think that you will have to reconsider your last statement. From Matthew 24 verse 1 to 31 everything is Jewish. From the Temple through synagogues, through Daniel, through the Sabbath to the elect, the WHOLE CONTEXT IS JEWISH. It was Jews that were scattered to the "four winds" (Jer.49:36, etc.). The are gathered back to their Land NOT HEAVEN.

The 12 tribes across the earth that are believers, as they keep the commandments of God and keep the testimony of Jesus Christ, will be gathered to heaven at the 6th seal....seen here.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here is another view.........................

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

"Wrath is an emotion". God wrath is hidden until One is found worthy to open the scroll of plagues. The Lamb, free of sins, may pour our God's wrath. This wrath causes TRIBULATION for men on earth.

Absolutely not. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. It is cut short for the elect's sake so that there will be flesh ALIVE to be raptured unto salvation. If the tribulation is not cut short all would be dead at the rapture at the 6th seal.

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

It affects Israel (Dan.12:1-2) an it covers the whole earth. God offers the Christian ESCAPE from it in Revelation 3:10. We Christians are NOT APPOINTED to God's WRATH (1st Thess.5:9).

Which proves my point. The great tribulation is NOT the wrath of God. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The wrath of God.........The day of the Lord........The day of vengeance is the 7th seal.

[The Light]

11 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Yes, come and see.......................THE FUTURE...................Notice, the Trumps are SOUNDED by Angels and the Vials are POURED OUT by Angels, the Seals are Jesus opening up the scroll of Judgments, and thus COME AND SEE [what will befall the world when  the 7th Seal releases the Trumpet Judgments]. 

Come see what will befall the world as each seal is opened. When the first seal is opened.........rider on the white horse. When the second seal is opened......red horse of war.

John has a vision of what will happen AS EACH SEAL IS OPENED. There is no waiting for the seventh seal to open before anything happens. Things happen as each seal is opened. Simple.

11 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

The horses are taken from Zechariah chapters 1-6, just like Rev. 17 is taken from Dan. 5, by God who wrote the book of Revelation. The GREAT SWORD of Conquering happens after the Jews flee in Rev. 7 and AFTER in Rev. 7 the Angels are told to HOLD UP God's Wrath until the 144,000 are sealed/saved & protected, HOLD UP the four winds that hurt what? The Earth, Sea and Trees. So, how can Rev. 6 be wrath when in Rev. 7 the Angels are told to HOLD UP that wrath until the Jews repent and are protected? 

Revelation 6 is not wrath.............Revelation 7 is the wrath of God. It is the day of the Lord..............the ONE YEAR wrath of God.

11 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

The Asteroid in Rev. 8 brings God's Wrath (Seal#6)

There is no wrath in the 6th seal. The sixth seal is the coming of Jesus for the harvest prior to wrath. Believers are not appointed to wrath. The 7th seal which contains the trumpets and vials are the wrath of God.

11 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

the Anti-Christ is Seals 1-5 himself, but he can not go forth until God's Wrath falls at the 1260 event. (Rev. 8)

The 1260 event begins at the AOD. The 7th seal wrath of God is one year long.

11 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

God wrote the book of Revelation, gave it to Jesus who showed it to John via Visions and Words. John & God understood a Seal  SEALS UP a message/book, you don't it seems. There is ZERO CLAIM those events happen when the Seals are opened, the fact you can not see that the Seals are Visions into the future seems odd because in fact the whole book is a vision into the future. COME AND SEE......... is not a testament by an Angel that Blowing a Trump brings JUDGMENT or the pouring out of the Vials bring JUDGMENT.

The seals ARE visions of the future. John sees the future and He sees Jesus opening the seals. As each seal is opened IN THE FUTURE, the event happens. All seals happen in order. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Jesus returns for a harvest. Then the 7th seal is opened and the one year wrath of God begins.

11 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

So, the fact that John merely hears COME AND SEE, and not an Angel delivering a SOUNDED JUDGMENT, or PPOURING OUT the Vials of Judgment, means the Seals merely Seal up God's wrath.

The seals ARE visions of the future. John sees the future and He sees Jesus opening the seals. As each seal is opened, IN THE FUTURE, the event happens.

[AdHoc]

7 minutes ago, The Light said:

The great tribulation is Satan killing believers. Specifically for the most part it is Satan killing the seed of the woman the 12 tribes across the earth. He can't get to the woman, Israel, as they have fled to a place of protection so he goes after her seed who keep the commandments of God and at that time have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 12

¹⁷ And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is contrary to the facts.
Israel is never in heaven - the woman was
Israel is real - the woman is "sign"
Israel did not spawn "those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ"
Israel hates the name of Jesus and kills those who have His testimony
Israel was never pregnant
Israel did not go to the wilderness for 1260 days
Israel did not "keep the commandments of God"
Israel was helped by God in the wilderness - woman, by the earth
Israel never believes. They are "concluded in UNBELIEF"

Surely your whole understanding is wrong. If the foundation fails, the rest collapses

[AdHoc]

25 minutes ago, The Light said:

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

The vengeance for the martyrs in Chapter 6 is a threat against their persecutors. The seven Trumpets do not kill saints but "men". If the Tribulation was to kill saints how does such a great company survive in Chapter 7. 

What great company survives in Chapter 7?

If the great company have been through the Tribulation then logically they survived it. If they were killed they missed it. You cant go through an event if you are dead.

[The Light]

15 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

This is contrary to the facts.
Israel is never in heaven - the woman was 

Let's talk about the woman......here.

Revelation 12

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

This woman represents those of Israel the flee to a place of protection.

 

15 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

 

Israel is real - the woman is "sign" 

The woman represents Israel.

15 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

 

Israel did not spawn "those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ"

Blindness is removed from part of Israel, after the rapture of the church. That part is the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

15 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

 

Israel hates the name of Jesus and kills those who have His testimony 

They are currently blind. However, the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. The 70 week is not complete and God is not finished with His Chosen.

15 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Israel was never pregnant 

He seed is the 12 tribes across the earth.

15 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

 

Israel did not go to the wilderness for 1260 days 

This is a future event, when the AOD is set up.

15 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

 

Israel did not "keep the commandments of God" 

They will as the seed of the woman will have it's eyes opened.

15 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

 

Israel was helped by God in the wilderness - woman, by the earth 

Future event.

15 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

 

Israel never believes. They are "concluded in UNBELIEF"

Romans 11

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

15 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Surely your whole understanding is wrong. If the foundation fails, the rest collapses

There are two raptures. The first is the Church, the second is the seed of Israel, the 12 tribes across the earth. Why do you think there are 144,000 first fruits?

If the first fruits are pumpkins, the harvest will be pumpkins. Since the 1st fruits are 144,000 from the 12 tribes across the earth, the harvest will be the 12 tribes across the earth. This happens at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

[The Light]

36 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

If the great company have been through the Tribulation then logically they survived it. If they were killed they missed it. You cant go through an event if you are dead.

Some do survive the great tribulation. That is why it is cut short........or no flesh would be alive to be raptured unto salvation. 

[AdHoc]

6 minutes ago, The Light said:

Let's talk about the woman......here.

Revelation 12

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

This woman represents those of Israel the flee to a place of protection.

 

The woman represents Israel.

Blindness is removed from part of Israel, after the rapture of the church. That part is the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

They are currently blind. However, the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. The 70 week is not complete and God is not finished with His Chosen.

He seed is the 12 tribes across the earth.

This is a future event, when the AOD is set up.

They will as the seed of the woman will have it's eyes opened.

Future event.

Romans 11

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

There are two raptures. The first is the Church, the second is the seed of Israel, the 12 tribes across the earth. Why do you think there are 144,000 first fruits?

If the first fruits are pumpkins, the harvest will be pumpkins. Since the 1st fruits are 144,000 from the 12 tribes across the earth, the harvest will be the 12 tribes across the earth. This happens at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

 

4 minutes ago, The Light said:

Some do survive the great tribulation. That is why it is cut short........or no flesh would be alive to be raptured unto salvation. 

You hold that the woman of Revelation 12 is Israel. You have not brought one scripture for this. When shown that Israel did not do a single thing that the woman does, you ignore it. Okay, this is your right. But if we take the facst, another picture emerges. The picture is of a heavenly mother who is on earth and who will rule (having a crown). Clothes, or a "garment" is one's works (Rev.19:7-8). She has THREE different seeds; 1. The Man-Child, 2. those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ - Christians, and 3. those who keep the commandments of God - the REMNANT of Israel predicted in Romans 9 and 11.

This constellation appears three more times.

1. In Galatians the Church is CONTRASTED with Israel - except in ONE VERSE - Galatians 4:26. There, the Church under grace, and Israel under Law HAVE THE SAME MOTHER

2. In Romans 11 - the olive Tree, which I will explain below.

3. New Jerusalem. She is a WIFE. The Church is the Wall and Israel are the Gates.

In THREE of FOUR CASES where the KINGDOM of Christ is alluded to, New Jerusalem is "MOTHER OF US BOTH". I propose that the woman of Revelation 12 is New Jerusalem while unperfected and in the Great Tribulation

You make the Olive Tree Israel. But the parable says that Israel is the BRANCHES. Furthermore,scripture says that a TREE in parable is a king and his kingdom (Judges 9, Daniel 4 and Ezekiel 31). How can Israel be in the Kingdom if they were banned by the Lord in Matthew 21:43?

Is not the Olive Tree Christ's Kingdom with Israel cut out now? Are not Israel restored again AFTER the Church is finished (Act.15:14-16)? But is it not true that Israel will have David ( a believer - Jer.30:9) and the 12 Apostles (believers - Matt.19:28) ruling over them? So Israel could never be the Olive Tree. But because Emmanuel lives in Jerusalem in the coming age, and he Nations must visit the Lord annually (Zech.14:16), Israel may SERVE the Lord.

In these four cases we have a SOURCE who is heavenly, but on earth. The source will rule. The source has the glory of God. The source is a Mother in three of them, a Root in the fourth, and her seed make up three entities of Christ's Kingdom;
1. The Man-Child - the overcomers (Rev.2:27) who will rule
2. The Jewish Remnant - who fulfill Deuteronomy 30:1-5
3. The born again bulk of Christianity - who will serve (Rev.7:15)

This way, the Woman of Revlation 12 fulfills EVERY facit of New Jerusalem.