Unravelling Revelation

[truth7t7]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The Millennium

2. Jesus replaces the Devil as Prince of this world (Rev.11:15), and Satan is bound in the Abyss. During the Millennium, the Nations, who are still in the flesh, will multiply.

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?

2.) Physical Earthly Throne?

3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Edited February 21 by truth7t7

[Locust]

58 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

you say there's no 1000 years yet 5 says there is .hummm

[Indentured Servant]

20 hours ago, Deborah_ said:

each one has the same "perfect" number of members. This hardly supports a literal census;

Another reference to "the census..." 

The 144,000 is not a census, it's the remnant of Israel that God promised to restore. This is in the Prophets. Revelation reveals the tribes and numbers that are sealed.

20 hours ago, Deborah_ said:

The list of tribes in Revelation 7 is "incorrect" (Manasseh was a subdivision of Joseph, and Dan is missing completely

1. Scripture is "incorrect..." (that certainly is a common misconception of the accuracy of scripture) 

2. I wonder if Dan not being mentioned has anything to do with the fact that it was that specific tribe that introduced Israel to idolatry... Which was why God had to choose a remnant from Israel, and promise them He would live together with them. The half-tribe inclusion replaces Dan in the remnant.

[Deborah_]

1 hour ago, Indentured Servant said:

Another reference to "the census..." 

The 144,000 is not a census, it's the remnant of Israel that God promised to restore. This is in the Prophets. Revelation reveals the tribes and numbers that are sealed.

A census is when you count a large group of people. The people in Revelation 7 are most definitely being counted, so this is a census.

1 hour ago, Indentured Servant said:

Scripture is "incorrect..." (that certainly is a common misconception of the accuracy of scripture) 

That's why I put the word in quotation marks

1 hour ago, Indentured Servant said:

I wonder if Dan not being mentioned has anything to do with the fact that it was that specific tribe that introduced Israel to idolatry...

Except that (if you read the whole story going back to Judges) they didn't. Dan's very first idol was stolen from an Ephraimite. And it was an Ephraimite king, Jeroboam, who introduced idolatry into the Kingdom of Israel. Perhaps that's the reason why Ephraim is left out...

Edited February 21 by Deborah_

[Deborah_]

Now we come to the first of a series of 7 visions. If there is an overall theme, it seems to be the conflict between God and Satan that rumbles through the universe - and the choice that we have to make between them.

Revelation 11:19-12:17

In Israel’s religious calendar, the Feast of Trumpets was followed by the Day of Atonement (when the sanctuary was opened). After the blowing of all the trumpets, John is able to see into the heavenly temple (of which the earthly temple in Jerusalem was a copy), right into the Most Holy Place. The Ark of the Covenant symbolised God’s holy presence; but it was also the focal point of His mercy and grace. As such, it forms the context for a series of seven visions, which explain the nature of the conflict between good and evil that characterises our present age.

The first of these visions (Revelation 12) is a re-telling of the Christmas story from a heavenly viewpoint. The woman is the nation of Israel; the twelve stars stand for the twelve tribes (see Genesis 37:9,10). As a descendant of Eve (see Genesis 3:15), she suffers what the Jews called ‘the birth pains of the Messiah’ - the centuries of anguish endured by Israel as she waited for the coming of her King (see Micah 5:3; Isaiah 26:17). For she has a terrifying and immensely powerful Enemy: Satan, the dragon, whose evil intention is to frustrate God’s purposes. All through history he has tried to corrupt and destroy God’s people, and he also tried to destroy the Messiah who came from Israel. In earthly history, this has been manifested in many ways, from Pharaoh trying to kill baby Moses (Exodus 1:22) to Herod trying to kill baby Jesus (Matthew 2:13). And who could be more vulnerable than a pregnant woman and a new-born baby? But Satan was foiled: Jesus escaped premature death, completed His mission and went back into heaven. The Jews, having fulfilled their main purpose, were once again forced into exile - but are still under God’s care and protection.

The earthly conflict has its counterpart in heaven, where war has been raging between the devil’s army and the army of God under the command of the archangel Michael (the guardian of God’s people). The dragon was the one who initiated the Great Rebellion in the beginning (Genesis 3:1). But from the moment of Jesus’ death, he and all his followers (both angelic and human) have been on the defensive. And when the Lamb ascended triumphantly to heaven, Satan was forced to descend unceremoniously to earth! (John 12:31) He is now barred from access to God’s throne room and can no longer accuse God’s people (see Zechariah 3:1,2; Romans 8:33,34). Christ’s death has robbed Satan of his power, by removing the basis for his accusations (Colossians 2:13-15).

And we’re not just passive spectators; we also participate in Satan’s overthrow, by putting our faith in Jesus and standing firm against the devil’s attacks. We may be persecuted; we may be martyred; but our salvation is utterly secure! And so we’re already able to celebrate Christ’s great victory, even while we continue to suffer in this life. For although Satan and his hosts have been comprehensively defeated in the heavenly realms, the war on earth is not yet over. Satan can still wreak havoc in this world; and his rage is all the greater because he knows that he can’t win!

Meanwhile, Israel disappears into the wilderness for the duration of the Gospel age. It’s a place of testing, but also a place of supernatural provision - and relative safety. And she hasn’t been abandoned by God; in fact, it’s there that she will eventually re-discover Him (see Hosea 2:14,15). Satan continues to wage war against the Jewish people, but finds his attempts to destroy them continually frustrated. He therefore concentrates his efforts on persecuting Christians.

Edited February 21 by Deborah_

[Dennis1209]

2 hours ago, Indentured Servant said:

2. I wonder if Dan not being mentioned has anything to do with the fact that it was that specific tribe that introduced Israel to idolatry... Which was why God had to choose a remnant from Israel, and promise them He would live together with them. The half-tribe inclusion replaces Dan in the remnant.

Your understanding is the same as mine. There are no “lost tribes.” In the list of tribes, Joseph stands for Ephraim, and Dan is missing, possibly because it was the first tribe to fall into idolatry and apostasy and led the other tribes along (cf. Judg. 18).

The story has much more, but I do not want to go off-topic.

 

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, Indentured Servant said:

Another reference to "the census..." 

The 144,000 is not a census, it's the remnant of Israel that God promised to restore. This is in the Prophets. Revelation reveals the tribes and numbers that are sealed.

1. Scripture is "incorrect..." (that certainly is a common misconception of the accuracy of scripture) 

2. I wonder if Dan not being mentioned has anything to do with the fact that it was that specific tribe that introduced Israel to idolatry... Which was why God had to choose a remnant from Israel, and promise them He would live together with them. The half-tribe inclusion replaces Dan in the remnant.

Cc @Deborah_

I would like to give my opinion of this subject, not to change your mind, but simply to give a possible reason why Dan is missing.

In Galatians we are told that a Covenant is a Covenant and cannot be arbitrarily annulled. Only death annuls the power of subjection. So, if Israel refused the Kingdom of Heaven (which I mean to be the one predicted in Daniel 2), they still remain in Covenant. If a Jew embraces Jesus, he is regarded as a New Creature with no past (2nd Cor.5:17). The Law then is nailed to the cross for this New Creature (Eph.2:15). But if he doesn't embrace his Messiah he is still bound to the Law.

Deuteronomy 28 records al the blessings and curses of this Covenant. Deuteronomy 30:1-5 predicts Israel's failure and dispersion. It also records the conditions for the recovery of Israel NATIONALLY. That is, a return to Moses with all their heart. But God is not naive. He knows the end from the beginning. And knowing that Israel would never, as a Nation, return to Law, applied His law of legal substitution. He holds for Himself and His purposes a SUBSTITUTE. Noah was one, Abraham's ten was another, Gideon's 300 was another, the 2.5% of Judah who returned to build the second Temple He calls "Israel" and in Elijah's time He reserved 7,000 men "zealous for the Law" so that He was not forced to annihilate the whole Nation.

The 144,000 of Revelation 7:1-8 is the remnant promised in Romans 9 and 11. Notice the facts of this company. 144,000 is a number derived from New Jerusalem - God's final consummated administration on earth. 12 is the number of God's people. So as not to die from the mechanisms of the Great Tribulation they are "sealed" (Rev.9:4). There is no talk of them converting, nor is there a hint of them preaching the gospel. Since Galatians 3:28 and Colossians 3:11 plainly discount any ethnicity in the New Man, and the hardness and blindness of Israel remains until the times of the Gentile be full, and they are CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF, there is not a single reason, or ounce of proof of them being anything else but OF ISRAEL.

If this be correct, and they are the Remnant, then they are REPRESENTATIVE of the whole Nation and Dan does not have to be there. Their job is to keep the Law with all their hearts and fulfill Deuteronomy 30:1-5.

In closing I would lke to point out that in Revelation 12 the grammar clearly shows TWO companies. It is, in verse 17; 

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The usage of "which" and the conjunction "and" imply the following: 

..., which keep the commandments of God, and (which) have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Seed is plural. When the seed is singular, as in Galatians, 3 it must be noted

"And" is cumulative and copulative. It adds another thing. "Bread AND butter"

The term, "the commandments of God" in the Old Testament exclusively mean the Law of Moses. In the New Testament we are to follow the commands of Jesus Christ - our HEAD. Added to this, the whole book of Galatians FORBIDS the followers of Jesus Christ to involve themselves with the Law of Moses. Tis is further proof of TWO COMPANIES, one which fulfills the Law and one which is Believers.

Conclusion. The company of 144,000 in Revelation 7:1-8 are the Israelite REMNANT promised in Romans 9 and 11. the number is that of New Jerusalem - 12 X 12 X 1,000. They are representative so Dan can be missing. They fulfill Deuteronomy 30:1-5. They appear in Chapter 12 again. They are not "saved". They are sealed like Israelites in Ezekiel 9

[Indentured Servant]

1 hour ago, Deborah_ said:

A census is when you count a large group of people. The people in Revelation 7 are most definitely being counted, so this is a census.

A census counts and evaluates a population's specific profile... It includes an 'accurate' count of people and their identities... In this case, it says they are israel.

Census is about accurate numbers, but the biblical number 144,000 is symbolic for an accurate count of another sum than 144,000?

Scripture identifies them as members of specifically named tribes of Israel, but it's actually Christians?

Scripture indicates they are males, but they can be either of the two genders?

Scripture speaks of them as virgins, but is that kinda like being males, scripture just says that to add superfluous exact details?

Scripture describes them as being blameless, but, but that's a silly requirement for someone who is forgiven, right?

 

I can't fathom the 144,000 as a symbolic census... It doesn't fit the point of a census in any category. It doesn't trigger me to think of a census, in that it reveals ("Revelation") to me that it is clearly speaking of the remnant of Israel. 

I don't see Revelation as entirely made up of symbols, although it does contain symbols.

I do think many Christians hyperfocus on the idea of symbology and assign too much of that concept to attempt to understand the book of Revelation.

Just two (specific) chapters of Revelation has more than 100 Old Testament references and quotes about Israel.  

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Deborah_ said:

Now we come to the first of a series of 7 visions. If there is an overall theme, it seems to be the conflict between God and Satan that rumbles through the universe - and the choice that we have to make between them.

Revelation 11:19-12:17

In Israel’s religious calendar, the Feast of Trumpets was followed by the Day of Atonement (when the sanctuary was opened). After the blowing of all the trumpets, John is able to see into the heavenly temple (of which the earthly temple in Jerusalem was a copy), right into the Most Holy Place. The Ark of the Covenant symbolised God’s holy presence; but it was also the focal point of His mercy and grace. As such, it forms the context for a series of seven visions, which explain the nature of the conflict between good and evil that characterises our present age.

The first of these visions (Revelation 12) is a re-telling of the Christmas story from a heavenly viewpoint. The woman is the nation of Israel; the twelve stars stand for the twelve tribes (see Genesis 37:9,10). As a descendant of Eve (see Genesis 3:15), she suffers what the Jews called ‘the birth pains of the Messiah’ - the centuries of anguish endured by Israel as she waited for the coming of her King (see Micah 5:3; Isaiah 26:17). For she has a terrifying and immensely powerful Enemy: Satan, the dragon, whose evil intention is to frustrate God’s purposes. All through history he has tried to corrupt and destroy God’s people, and he also tried to destroy the Messiah who came from Israel. In earthly history, this has been manifested in many ways, from Pharaoh trying to kill baby Moses (Exodus 1:22) to Herod trying to kill baby Jesus (Matthew 2:13). And who could be more vulnerable than a pregnant woman and a new-born baby? But Satan was foiled: Jesus escaped premature death, completed His mission and went back into heaven. The Jews, having fulfilled their main purpose, were once again forced into exile - but are still under God’s care and protection.

The earthly conflict has its counterpart in heaven, where war has been raging between the devil’s army and the army of God under the command of the archangel Michael (the guardian of God’s people). The dragon was the one who initiated the Great Rebellion in the beginning (Genesis 3:1). But from the moment of Jesus’ death, he and all his followers (both angelic and human) have been on the defensive. And when the Lamb ascended triumphantly to heaven, Satan was forced to descend unceremoniously to earth! (John 12:31) He is now barred from access to God’s throne room and can no longer accuse God’s people (see Zechariah 3:1,2; Romans 8:33,34). Christ’s death has robbed Satan of his power, by removing the basis for his accusations (Colossians 2:13-15).

And we’re not just passive spectators; we also participate in Satan’s overthrow, by putting our faith in Jesus and standing firm against the devil’s attacks. We may be persecuted; we may be martyred; but our salvation is utterly secure! And so we’re already able to celebrate Christ’s great victory, even while we continue to suffer in this life. For although Satan and his hosts have been comprehensively defeated in the heavenly realms, the war on earth is not yet over. Satan can still wreak havoc in this world; and his rage is all the greater because he knows that he can’t win!

Meanwhile, Israel disappears into the wilderness for the duration of the Gospel age. It’s a place of testing, but also a place of supernatural provision - and relative safety. And she hasn’t been abandoned by God; in fact, it’s there that she will eventually re-discover Him (see Hosea 2:14,15). Satan continues to wage war against the Jewish people, but finds his attempts to destroy them continually frustrated. He therefore concentrates his efforts on persecuting Christians.

I read you with interest and in many aspects agree with you. Here is my summary of Chapter 12

In my discussion with another on this thread, I showed that the Woman could not be Israel (page 3 middle). The dream of Genesis 37 must be taken into account but differ on every point except one. If we are to interpret the Bible with the Bible then the differences exclude most of the dream. The only common point is that 12 is the number of God's People o earth. The sun, moon, stars and the woman all had different meanings. In a posting at th end of page 3 I showed a strong argument that she was New Jerusalem still imperfect in the Great Tribulation.

The woman is heavenly - but delivers her child on earth. The Man Child is, according to the following verses, the Overcomers. The travail of the Woman is the pain involved in following Christ. Revelation 3:10 is CONDITIONAL. That is, NOT ALL Christians are "kept from the hour of trial".

The woman has "Seed" (plural) which are present on earth when the Man Child is raptured. They form two companies 1. those who keep the commandments of God - a term used throughout the Old Testament for the Law of Moses, and 2. those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ - Christians.

The Dragon is displaced by the Man-Child morally. He is salt and light but does not fight angels. Man Child shows strength in weakness. "Man" is the stronger part but "Child" is his weakness and thus reliance on Christ's word. Michael, angel to Israel, dos the fighting - and prevails by God seeing he is lower in rank (see Jude 9). The dragon has but a short time - 1260 days. This further strengthens the Man-Child theory. Satan is not displaced from heaven at Christ's rapture for in Ephesians, written much later, he is called "the Price of the power of the air".

The Dragon is on earth for a short while showing this all to take place at the end of the age. The heavenly woman must flee, being "inhabitant of earth". Gd does not help her. The EARTH does: This is the outcome of revelation 18:4. The woman, now representing the REMAINDER of her seed, who were NOT FOUND WORTHY TO ESCAPE (Luke 21:35-36) - conditional again, must face the consequences of a slothful Christian life and/or the rejection of Christ as Messiah. They are left on earth for 1260 days - the duration of the Great Tribulation.

Notes;
In at least FOUR scriptures do we have "saints" passing through the Great Tribulation. Rev,7:15, 12:17, 13:7 and 18:4.

In at least another FOUR scriptures we have a CONDITIONAL escape by Christians. Matthew 24:40-44, "watch, for YOUR LORD ... "
Luke 21:35-36,"counted WORTHY to escape ... "
Phil.3:9-14, "to ATTAIN TO ..." and "the PRIZE... "
Rev.3:10, "BECAUSE ..."

[Indentured Servant]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I would like to give my opinion of this subject, not to change your mind, but simply to give a possible reason why Dan is missing.

I certainly enjoyed reading your perspective and insights. 

There are a few primary insights on the identity of the 144,000, with a few variations.

Many people cannot see that this is nothing other than the revealing of the promised remnant of Israel, as prophesied in the Old Testament.

I just like to explore how people explain their understanding of Scripture.