Works/Fruit?

[AllforJesustheLord]

Fruit comes from Getting righteousness from God, and works is the manifestation of the fruit in the natural. We should understand both, so we can have more love inside of ourselves.

[Guest Orthodox Christian]

I see, dear Protestants, that you all have a desperate longing for spiritual help in very important questions like what is righteousness and how to acwire it? I know this is a little off-top, but the words of the messages in this thread are soaked with that longing and the question whether fruits are the same as works actually originates in the lack of knowledge in the matter of righteousness.

I notice that Protestants "are cooked in their own juice" as we say (in my country) meaning that they seek answers only within their own culture and congregation, within their own time and origin. However, Christianity is 2000 years old and there might be answers for your questions already but you don't know they even exist.

So, let me introduce you to Orthodox spiritual wisdom that satisfies my huge thirst for spiritual knowledge and gives me weapons against sin.

I hate to write too big posts because they don't look right in a forum (and it is hard to read them). One needs some kind of an article "space" and "mood". But I'll try and extract drops from some of my favourite "balsams for the soul".

"The most gracious Lord, knowing our infirmities and forseeing that we would sin also after the holy baptism, like it is said in the Scripture (Gen. 8:21), gave us, according to His goodness, the holy commandments that cleance us, so that if we choose, we could again [like in Eden] by following the commandments be cleanced not only from our sins, but from the very passions. For passions is different from sins. A passion is: anger, vainglory, love of sweet things, hate, evil lust and such. Sins are the actions of passions, when someone brings them into fulfillment in a deed, meaning, does those things by his body, that were prompted by his passions, for one might have passions, but not obey them.

[...]

[God] teaches us how we should be cleanced from the very passions with the holy commandments, so that through them [passions] we wouldn't fall into sin again. And finally, He shows us the cause which brings a person to carelessness and disobedience of the very commandments of God, and therefore gives us a cure against this cause, so that we could become obedient [...]. What is that cure and what is that cause of carelessness? Listen what our Lord Himself says: "Take up My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am meek and humble in heart; and ye shall find rest to your souls" (Mat. 11:29). Here He showed us in short, in one word, the root and cause of all evil, and cure from those -- the cause of all good: He showed that our self-rising have brought us down, that we cannot receive mercy other than through the opposite of [pride], i.e. humility. For self-rising brings carelessness, disobedience and death, whereas humility brings obedience [...]. I mean the true humility, which is not only in the words or in the look, but the seed of humility that is planted in the very heart. So, he who wants to find the true humbleness and rest to his soul should learn humility and see, that it is the cause of all joy and all glory and all the rest, as in pride is all the opposite. For what brought us to our afflictions? Wasn't it our pride? Wasn't it our foolishness? And what else could do that? Wasn't the man, after his creation, in all pleasure, and joy, and rest, and glory? Wasn't he in Paradise? He was commanded not to do something, but he did. Do you see pride? Do you see stubborness? Do you see disobedience?

After that God, seeing such lack of conscience, says: he is foolish, he does not know how to find pleasure in joy. If he does not encounter afflictions, he would go even farther and would be in a complete distruction. For if he does not know what is sorrow, than he would also not know what is rest. [...] And the man was given to his own selfishness and his own will, so that they could break his bones, that he could learn to follow not himself, but the commandments of God, that the most severe suffering of disobedience would teach him the rest of obedience, like the prophet says: "thy disobedience would punish thou" (Jer. 2:19). However, the goodness of God, like I oftenly sayd, did not ignore its creature, but calls upon us again: "Come to Me, all ye who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest" (Mat. 11:28). It is as He was saying: you labored, you suffered, you experienced evil consequences of your disobedience; come now, turn to Me; come, and know your infirmities, so that you could enter your peace and glory. Come, make yourself alive with humility instead of your high-mindedness, that made you dead. "Learn from Me, for I am meek and humble in heart; and ye shall find rest to your souls." [...] If the man could humble himself first and listened to God and kept the commandment, he wouldn't have fallen.

[The pastor describes how Adam and Eve did not repent when God called them after they sinned, but instead they blamed it on each other and even on God Himself -- "the wife that Thou gave me" in Adam's words]. So, you see now clearly where our nature has led us, in what afflictions our justifications have led us, our habit of holding to our will and follow our wishes. These all are children of prite, hostile to God. And children of humility are: self-reproach, distrust to your own mind, hate of your own will; for though them a person becomes worthy of returning to his true self and to the natural state [such was before the fall of Adam] though the purification of yourself by the holy commandments of Christ. Without humility one cannot obey the commandments and reach something good, like abba Mark sayd: "Without being truly sorry deep in your heart of your sins, you cannot free yourself from evil and ackquire virtue".

[...]

How the Apostle says: the world is crucified for me and I for it(Gal. 6:14)? What is the difference between them? How is it that a person is crusified for the world and the world is crusified for the person? When a person rejects the world and becomes a monk, leaves his parents, possessions, trade, then the world is crusified for him, for he rejected it. That is what the words of the Apostle mean: the world is crusified for me; but then he adds: and I for it. How is it that a person is crusified for the world? When, freeing himself from external things, he strives against the very passions, and the very wish for the things, and against his desires, and would kill his passions. then he is also crusified for the world and is worthy of saying like the Aposlte: the world is crusified for me and I for it.

[...]

Let's assume that someone, having walked a certain distance, saw something and his mind tells him: "go and see what is there". But he answers to his mind: "truly I would not go and see", and rejects his wish, and does not look there. Or meets some people who engage in a worldly talk, and the mind tells him: "and you also say a word", but he rejects his wish and does not say anything. Or the mind tells him: "go and ask the cook what is he cooking", but he does not go and rejects his desire. [...] Rejecting in this manner his will, he comes to a habit of doing that, and beginning from the little thing, reaches that he becomes able of rejecting his will without a big effort and peacefully during a great temptation, and reaches at last that state when he does not has his will at all, and whatever happens to him, he is in peace, like his own wish has been fulfilled. And then, when he does not want to fulfill his will, it turns out that it is always fulfilled anyway. [...] And in this manner it turns out that he does not have a desire, and from the lack of desire comes lack of passion. See, what accomplishment is brought by rejecting our own [evil] will little by little?

[...] Like in a chariot with two horses, one horse cannot run faster than the other, or else the chariot would be broken, so it is needed for obedience also that it was tied with humility.

[...] Glory be to our God forever. Amen."

This is only an extraction from one chapter from a book of Abba Dorotheos, a Greek monk, a great spiritual teacher who lived a thousand years ago. In the next chapter he says how humility starts all virtues and explains how to ackquire it. The chapter after that he talks about conscience and how we should listen to its tiny voice. The chapter after that tells about the fear of God. And he also talks about that we should walk upon the world wisely and set sound goals that we can reach, and about judging our brother, and many other things. This book is a guide for every Christian though the life, but only Orthodox Christians see use in his advices, others don't appreciate the accomplishments of early Christians (because they don't know their value).

There are modern elders like that and also pastors that lived even before Abba Dorotheos a couple of hundreds of years. Tons of literature. Tons of advice.

Edited September 3, 2004 by Orthodox Christian

[sachi]

Thank you ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN

for sharing your perspective on this topic from your extremely rich heritage.

This piece particulalry spoke to me :

Like in a chariot with two horses, one horse cannot run faster than the other, or else the chariot would be broken, so it is needed for obedience also that it was tied with humility

.

Those are two tensions the Lord is dealing with me continually - it is beautifully stated.

It is true that we as Protestants ofte n are too narrow in our vision - I don't know why many Protestants close them selves off from the rich and profoundly Christian writings of the Catholic traditions.

We certainly appreciate the art of for example Rennaisance Masters - why not the writings - stemming from the same tradition ? ?? ?

I have been deeply blessed by many many works - and some were in fact pivotal for me in my conversion to Christianity.

With regard to the FRUITS of the spirit : they are a result of God's righteousness working in us transforming our Spirit-man.

Works are out comes of the FRUITS.

But I have seen WORKS without a person exemplying FRUITS of the Spirit as well -

But then it is not for me to judge. :suspect:

Blessing in our Lord - Sachi.

[AllforJesustheLord]

I see, dear Protestants, that you all have a desperate longing for spiritual help in very important questions like what is righteousness and how to acwire it? I know this is a little off-top, but the words of the messages in this thread are soaked with that longing and the question whether fruits are the same as works actually originates in the lack of knowledge in the matter of righteousness.

I notice that Protestants "are cooked in their own juice" as we say (in my country) meaning that they seek answers only within their own culture and congregation, within their own time and origin. However, Christianity is 2000 years old and there might be answers for your questions already but you don't know they even exist.

So, let me introduce you to Orthodox spiritual wisdom that satisfies my huge thirst for spiritual knowledge and gives me weapons against sin.

I hate to write too big posts because they don't look right in a forum (and it is hard to read them). One needs some kind of an article "space" and "mood". But I'll try and extract drops from some of my favourite "balsams for the soul".

"The most gracious Lord, knowing our infirmities and forseeing that we would sin also after the holy baptism, like it is said in the Scripture (Gen. 8:21), gave us, according to His goodness, the holy commandments that cleance us, so that if we choose, we could again [like in Eden] by following the commandments be cleanced not only from our sins, but from the very passions. For passions is different from sins. A passion is: anger, vainglory, love of sweet things, hate, evil lust and such. Sins are the actions of passions, when someone brings them into fulfillment in a deed, meaning, does those things by his body, that were prompted by his passions, for one might have passions, but not obey them.

[...]

[God] teaches us how we should be cleanced from the very passions with the holy commandments, so that through them [passions] we wouldn't fall into sin again. And finally, He shows us the cause which brings a person to carelessness and disobedience of the very commandments of God, and therefore gives us a cure against this cause, so that we could become obedient [...]. What is that cure and what is that cause of carelessness? Listen what our Lord Himself says: "Take up My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am meek and humble in heart; and ye shall find rest to your souls" (Mat. 11:29). Here He showed us in short, in one word, the root and cause of all evil, and cure from those -- the cause of all good: He showed that our self-rising have brought us down, that we cannot receive mercy other than through the opposite of [pride], i.e. humility. For self-rising brings carelessness, disobedience and death, whereas humility brings obedience [...]. I mean the true humility, which is not only in the words or in the look, but the seed of humility that is planted in the very heart. So, he who wants to find the true humbleness and rest to his soul should learn humility and see, that it is the cause of all joy and all glory and all the rest, as in pride is all the opposite. For what brought us to our afflictions? Wasn't it our pride? Wasn't it our foolishness? And what else could do that? Wasn't the man, after his creation, in all pleasure, and joy, and rest, and glory? Wasn't he in Paradise? He was commanded not to do something, but he did. Do you see pride? Do you see stubborness? Do you see disobedience?

After that God, seeing such lack of conscience, says: he is foolish, he does not know how to find pleasure in joy. If he does not encounter afflictions, he would go even farther and would be in a complete distruction. For if he does not know what is sorrow, than he would also not know what is rest. [...] And the man was given to his own selfishness and his own will, so that they could break his bones, that he could learn to follow not himself, but the commandments of God, that the most severe suffering of disobedience would teach him the rest of obedience, like the prophet says: "thy disobedience would punish thou" (Jer. 2:19). However, the goodness of God, like I oftenly sayd, did not ignore its creature, but calls upon us again: "Come to Me, all ye who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest" (Mat. 11:28). It is as He was saying: you labored, you suffered, you experienced evil consequences of your disobedience; come now, turn to Me; come, and know your infirmities, so that you could enter your peace and glory. Come, make yourself alive with humility instead of your high-mindedness, that made you dead. "Learn from Me, for I am meek and humble in heart; and ye shall find rest to your souls." [...] If the man could humble himself first and listened to God and kept the commandment, he wouldn't have fallen.

[The pastor describes how Adam and Eve did not repent when God called them after they sinned, but instead they blamed it on each other and even on God Himself -- "the wife that Thou gave me" in Adam's words]. So, you see now clearly where our nature has led us, in what afflictions our justifications have led us, our habit of holding to our will and follow our wishes. These all are children of prite, hostile to God. And children of humility are: self-reproach, distrust to your own mind, hate of your own will; for though them a person becomes worthy of returning to his true self and to the natural state [such was before the fall of Adam] though the purification of yourself by the holy commandments of Christ. Without humility one cannot obey the commandments and reach something good, like abba Mark sayd: "Without being truly sorry deep in your heart of your sins, you cannot free yourself from evil and ackquire virtue".

[...]

How the Apostle says: the world is crucified for me and I for it(Gal. 6:14)? What is the difference between them? How is it that a person is crusified for the world and the world is crusified for the person? When a person rejects the world and becomes a monk, leaves his parents, possessions, trade, then the world is crusified for him, for he rejected it. That is what the words of the Apostle mean: the world is crusified for me; but then he adds: and I for it. How is it that a person is crusified for the world? When, freeing himself from external things, he strives against the very passions, and the very wish for the things, and against his desires, and would kill his passions. then he is also crusified for the world and is worthy of saying like the Aposlte: the world is crusified for me and I for it.

[...]

Let's assume that someone, having walked a certain distance, saw something and his mind tells him: "go and see what is there". But he answers to his mind: "truly I would not go and see", and rejects his wish, and does not look there. Or meets some people who engage in a worldly talk, and the mind tells him: "and you also say a word", but he rejects his wish and does not say anything. Or the mind tells him: "go and ask the cook what is he cooking", but he does not go and rejects his desire. [...] Rejecting in this manner his will, he comes to a habit of doing that, and beginning from the little thing, reaches that he becomes able of rejecting his will without a big effort and peacefully during a great temptation, and reaches at last that state when he does not has his will at all, and whatever happens to him, he is in peace, like his own wish has been fulfilled. And then, when he does not want to fulfill his will, it turns out that it is always fulfilled anyway. [...] And in this manner it turns out that he does not have a desire, and from the lack of desire comes lack of passion. See, what accomplishment is brought by rejecting our own [evil] will little by little?

[...] Like in a chariot with two horses, one horse cannot run faster than the other, or else the chariot would be broken, so it is needed for obedience also that it was tied with humility.

[...] Glory be to our God forever. Amen."

This is only an extraction from one chapter from a book of Abba Dorotheos, a Greek monk, a great spiritual teacher who lived a thousand years ago. In the next chapter he says how humility starts all virtues and explains how to ackquire it. The chapter after that he talks about conscience and how we should listen to its tiny voice. The chapter after that tells about the fear of God. And he also talks about that we should walk upon the world wisely and set sound goals that we can reach, and about judging our brother, and many other things. This book is a guide for every Christian though the life, but only Orthodox Christians see use in his advices, others don't appreciate the accomplishments of early Christians (because they don't know their value).

There are modern elders like that and also pastors that lived even before Abba Dorotheos a couple of hundreds of years. Tons of literature. Tons of advice.

I am not a Protestant. Just want to let you know.

I would like to know more about your orthodox church the particular one you are in, will you tell me which one this is. Also can you tell me the statement of faith, your basic beliefs. Thank you, and Grace, mercy, and truth be your in the name which is above all name Jesus Christ I pray Amen.

[AllforJesustheLord]

Two understandings of works, are these one is works done by people, and not by God, and then there is the works of being done by God, in people, and through people, fruit comes out of dwelling in God, even Jesus Christ our Lord, and God, and the works is what most people think of as us doing things, if we do things in righteousness, then God is doing the works which is also the fruit growing out of the tree, the vine, and we know Jesus Christ is the vine, and we must grow out of Him, and dwell in Him in order to have fruit, and or the manifestation can be known as works. I see different understanding of works, the righteous ways of understand, and the unrighteous way of understand. Let us look at what Paul the apostle said, I worked more abundantly then they all yet not I but the grace of God with, in me. That may not be an exact quote but most of this is what the scriptures say. That means God's favor did everything, but in the manifestation without considering God power to work, and do all righteousness, people think they do the works, and in the natural they do, but in reality, no one can do any righteousness without God giving them power to do righteousness. May God The Father, through Jesus Christ His Only begotten Son, direct us to Himself to serve Him.

[Guest Orthodox Christian]

Sachi, I'm glad you liked it. Check out my new signature -- that's one of my favourite peices!

AllforJesus -- why are you asking which church I am in? Orthodoxy is all the same and it doesn't matter whether you are a Greek, Russian, Macedonian, Antiochian, Romanian, or some other Orthodox. They are all the same, just have different partiarchs. I am Russian, but I go to a Greek parish (in a Greek monastery).

May I ask you what church you are in?

Also can you tell me the statement of faith, your basic beliefs.

Our statement of beliefs is Nicean Creed, the one without "Filioque", the original. And Orthodox Church is the Original Church in general. It lives strictly on Apostolic tradition (not tradition of men like Catholics), and what the Apostles told the early Christians, we keep those words deep in our hearts, and it is not to say that Orthodox ARE those early Christians, their successors, spiritual descendants.

You might be interested in what is our notion of salvation is. Salvation is done by mercy of God, and "There is not some obscure conbination of actions that will guarantee our salvation," as one Orthodox guy in a forum sayd. However, the teaching about salvation is very different from that of Protestants. Protestants believe that God works in their souls automatically without their effort whatsoever (as I understand). But for Orthodox, we need to "start" the spiritual work for ourselves. God works in us only when we want that, when we wish to be "fixed", when we try to do that for ourselves. We certainly cannot do anything good without Him, but we need to show Him that we are willing for Him to change us. Like one priest characteristically described that process: "Suppose God told you to lift a big rock that is higher than you are and that you cannot embrace in your arms. You do not hesitate even for a second and roll your sleeves to start the work. When you approach the stone and reach your arms to lift the rock, at that moment God comes and gives His power to the person, and the person lifts the rock from the ground like a feather." Only when you don't hesitate and doubt your (actually, God's) strength, God helps you.

A person should become like God in order to be saved. Humility, love and compassion are ones of the most important virtues that should be ackwired with God's help. So, a person is not saved directly after baptism, unless that person really loves God. Spiritual growth is the subject of all of Orthodox literature -- hundreds and hundreds of books.

There is also another option for those who did not become like God but are in their death beds. It's confession and communion. A person should honestly repent for his sins (that implies humility), and then God will forgive him and he would be saved.

But for those who are not even baptised or who didn't have the chance to confess and commune, they also have a chance to be saved. God is merciful and He is above all rules, so He can save a muslim or a guy from an African tribe, and that is up to Him. We cannot know for sure who is saved.

Another thing that stands out from the teaching of Eastern Christianity is the notion of God's Grace. Mercy/favor and Grace are not the same thing. What the Apostles say about grace most of the time (when they say that it acts within them) is actually the energy of God that touches the soul. Let me describe it. Grace of the Holy Spirit is that light that enters the soul and instructs it in spiritual matters. It brings knowledge to the soul -- simply revelations -- shapes it, purifies it. It brings humility and love, and that is the instrument of salvation. God sends the grace of the Holy Spirit to the soul and it feels that, the soul becomes full of light and love, and brings virtue. Prayer becomes easy, and the Word of God is plesant to the ear and heart. Everyone who believes in God has that Divine activity in their hearts. But the grace can be in different measures, for some it is less, for some more, and also the grace can be steady or very dinamic. And the more abundant it is in a person, the closer the person draws to God. When that person sins, the grace leaves and that state resembles hell. The soul that tasted God's sweet love and that lost it is the most miserable, because there is nothing on earth more painful than when the grace leaves you. I felt it too, the highs of grace (not like in the saints, though, they have so much grace that they can walk upon the water), and absency of it. But some people do not notice it, especially those who stopped in their spiritual growth, because the grace is not dinamic.

So, grace -- is God's action in human heart. When you read the Apostles' Epistles with that new notion of grace, many things would become more clear, I think.

When a person falls, he should not let despair or shame enter his heart because they are both sins. Despair comes to the soul that has little faith in the mercy of God. One saint explains: when a person sins, God seems forgiving to him. But when the person have sinned, God seems cruel. So despair is when you don't believe that God will forgive you. But that in its turn is a weapon of pride -- a person does not want the humility to enter his heart and be humbled from the thought that he is infirm and weak and not so good after all. So the person actually does not want to be humbled and thus despairs -- becomes afraid. As I understand this. Shame comes in a same manner -- when a person thinks that he is righteous and sins, that does not humble him, but makes him be ashamed of his sin: "How could I, a true Christian, do that!?" So the sin is either forgotten or hidden, but when it is reminded of, a great wave of discomfort casts over the person. Humility is the middle road, we should always remember that we are weak and infirm before God. And when we fall, we should get up again and don't let the devils to ride on our pride! Repent and get up again, ask God of forgivness, continue.

That is basically Orthodox life -- falls and rises, humility, repentance and love, heaven and hell. Deamons that take fun of us in our dreams and grace that lifts us up in the day during prayer. Light that brings the knowledge of glory of God, His sweet love and meekness, and the awareness of your own sins. Pretty much going on! That is all my own spiritual experience, but those that have won the spiritual warfare with sin have even more knowledge that no one here can comprehend, including me.

The teaching about fruits is this. Works are those things that we do -- give alms, help each other, pray for each other, and other such things. Works, although happen only with the help of God, are our own deeds, that we do according to our own will. Orthodoxy, however, teaches, that we must submit ourselves to God completely, meaning, give up our own will even if it wishes good, and do only God's will. Well, of cource, we are supposed to know that will first in order to follow it. Well, that is the job of grace -- to bring the knowledge and different gifts. When a person grows in God, he becomes full of grace, and that grace teaches him God's will. But first, as abba Dorotheos says, we must reject our will little by little and thus give God know that we are willing to submit ourselves to Him and walk in His sight and do what He wants us to do. Then God instructs in that matter and a person starts to do His will, whatever it is. It is like a direct communication with the Lord -- an order comes and the person follows it. And so come the fruits -- after a person have reached the state of sainthood, meaning, when he becomes like God in every way. Light shines from his face (as Serafim of Sarov shone like Moses and Christ did), and people around notice an amazing love dwelling in his soul. Usually there are many people around such people, like John the Baptist had many disciples and the Aposltes had. So, such people do good according to God's will, when every step they make God instructs them in what they should do. So those are fruits, and they are many of many kinds: spiritual fruits -- love, humility, compassion, simplicity and others, gifts -- caesless prayer, prophecy, and others, and phisical gifts -- ability to walk upon the water, heal and perform other miracles. This is all real, and that is to praise the Lord! Great are His works! Glory be to Him forever.

[Guest charlie]

Orthodox Christian, in the past year I've been studying up on the RCC and the Eastern Orthodox Church. I'm facinated by both. It's harder to get info on the EO because there aren't many here in the U.S. The RCC has EWTN so it's easier to get information about their views and history.

I've gotten a few EO books to read and I must say your approach to scripture seems so spiritual; it's facinating. I sometimes go to the EO board at beliefnet and just read the threads there. Everybody is so calm even when people disagree, or try to "troll" them. I feel happy when I've read there. I hope that you will post here more often on a lot of different topics. With your particular Christian worldview I would love to read your opinions on a number of things.

I love the Jesus Prayer.

I have a quick question on baby baptism. I read that the EO performs immersion baptisms, and baptizes babies. How do you immerse them? Does the priest hold the babie's nose or does he just immerse the body and not the head? Sorry to ask such a stupid question but I've been wondering about it; how it's done.

Edited September 5, 2004 by charlie

[Aquilla]

My understanding of fruits ...

Natural fruit grows on trees or plants and takes time to ripen .

We are trees of the Lords planting.

The first thing I remember recieving when I was born again, was Love.

Love that flooded my soul and made me Joyful.

So first I experienced the Love of God, and that brought me Joy in his presence.

These are not fruits but seeds...

Seeds that grow inside and begin to bear fruit in due season.

The first fruit of the spirit is Love.

So when I am filled with Divine Love, the Love of God, which is not in any heart by nature but is planted by the Father, so the fruit when it comes is Love going out of me to others. The Love of God overflowing.

Rivers of living waters.

Love inspires work.

Inspire means to fill with spirit.

It is the Love of God that created a need to reach out and help others.

When I do this the Love of God can reach another, so Loving others is work that bears fruit.

We plant now the seeds of Love and we hope that it will grow in us into a great tree bringing forth all sorts of fruit.

The fruit of the lips is praise.

The fruit of the body is childbirth.

The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace etc.

The souls of men are fruit.

Jam 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

:il:

[tsth]

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.

Mal 4:4 "Remember the Law of Moses, My servant, Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel, With the statutes and judgments. 5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. 6 And he will turn The hearts of the fathers to the children, And the hearts of the children to their fathers, Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse."

Luke 1:17 He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, 'to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,' and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

just = righteous, observing divine laws

1 Thess. 4:1 Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God;

2 Thess. 2:10 You are witnesses, and God also, how devoutly and justly and blamelessly we behaved ourselves among you who believe; 11 as you know how we exhorted, and comforted, and charged every one of you, as a father does his own children, 12 that you would walk worthy of God who calls you into His own kingdom and glory.

I do know what you are referring to, but I now am at a point that I cannot shy away from the teachings of "being" peculiar. And not only do I not shy away, I am longing for the discourse on "righteousness" which I believe is greatly lacking within the church. Now that those have heard and accepted the gospel message..........they must "grow in grace".

I am thirsting for righteousness. I am praying for it to be taught within our churches again. Will you pray with me?

Thank you.

In His Love,

Suzanne

Dear Orthodox Christian,

The above was the essence of what I was getting at. With particular focus on the passages in Titus 2:11. This sums up the outcome of the power of grace working in us. It changes our outward and inward behavior, to the point that we become peculiar in action/life, in comparison to the world around us.

Titus 2:11 (KJV)

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

And

Titus 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness,

In His Love,

Suzanne

[AllforJesustheLord]

AllforJesus -- why are you asking which church I am in? Orthodoxy is all the same and it doesn't matter whether you are a Greek, Russian, Macedonian, Antiochian, Romanian, or some other Orthodox. They are all the same, just have different partiarchs. I am Russian, but I go to a Greek parish (in a Greek monastery).

May I ask you what church you are in?

Well I know there are many different orthodox churchs, and I do not know the differences they have, and I am interested in understanding. So you say they are all the same, in what ways, and in what ways are they different. Is it the languages which are the main difference?

I am in The Church of Jesus Christ, The Church of God, The Nazarene Sect, I am a follower of The Way, I am in The Christian church, meaning the church which comes from heaven, and I rely solely upon the merits of Jesus Christ who came to save all Jesus Said The Work of God is to believe in the one whom He sent. This I do, and my faith grows as I grow in the grace, of God. I do want you to know in Greek Grace means favor, that is what Grace is God's favor, when God shows us favor we have faith, and that faith has fruit, or works, thus we are saved, by grace through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works so that no one can boast, yet we must have faith, otherwise the person who does not have Christ does not have The Father, and does not have The Holy Spirit. So we must live in faith, obedience to God to have Faith in Him. We grow by God helping us to grow, we do work, but God is the One who really does the work, we can not save ourselves, we need Jesus Christ to be in us for us to be saved. \

When you say you believe what the apostles taught, that means in your case you believe what they taught, plus you choose to believe they taught what is taught by people after them also, in other words the many beliefs which are taught in your church you teach not only the bible, but the traditions in that church, and the beliefs of other people commenting on there beliefs about the scriptures, correct.?