A question for Worthy scholarship

[FreeGrace]

On 2/25/2025 at 5:29 PM, enoob57 said:

the term 'Judgment seat of Christ' seems to be taught that it is referring to judgment for reward of church unto Christ... However this:

John 5:22 (KJV)

[22] For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

so, the Great White Throne will be Christ judging
so, the judgment for reward of Church will be Christ judging

When the term 'Judgment seat of Christ' is said here
2 Corinthians 5:10 (KJV)

[10] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

How does this fit with judgment of reward when works both good and bad are in view... especially with this Biblical reality
Romans 8:1 (KJV)

[1] There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

John 5:24 (KJV)

[24] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

I seem to be understanding that Judgment seat of Christ can be either Church and rewards or Great White Throne. 
What say ye?

Great question!  Both 2 Cor 5:10 and Rev 20:11-15 mention a throne.  And Jesus will reign on both of them. 

The difference is that the JSC will occur at the Second Advent, and the GWT judgment will occur at the end of the Millennial reign.  Rev 20:5

So, same throne, same Judge, different attendees.  😁

[FreeGrace]

On 2/26/2025 at 5:57 PM, Marilyn C said:

angels4u said:

I know that,but do you realize the consequence? Look what the elders did with their rewards...they were able to give them back to Jesus,wouldn't you feel awful if you didn't have any to give back to Jesus?

Good scripture concerning the elders, who represent the whole Body of Christ. The casting their crowns before the Lord is their acknowledging that it was through Christ alone that they receive their crowns. For remember we are Kingpriests. Therefore, we do have `crowns,` authority under Christ of course.

Context explains the "casting of crowns".

9 - And whenever the living creatures give glory, honor, and thanks to the One seated on the throne who lives forever and ever,

10 - the twenty-four elders fall down before the One seated on the throne, and they worship Him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying:

v.9 shows that "whenever" the living creatures give glory, honor, and thanks, THEN the 24 elders fall down and cast their crown before the throne.

So the "casting of crowns" is an on-going activity, not a one time event.  That implies that they cast their crowns over and over, which will be "whenever" the living creatures give glory to the King.

[enoob57]

On 3/1/2025 at 3:23 AM, FreeGrace said:

Great question!  Both 2 Cor 5:10 and Rev 20:11-15 mention a throne.  And Jesus will reign on both of them. 

The difference is that the JSC will occur at the Second Advent, and the GWT judgment will occur at the end of the Millennial reign.  Rev 20:5

So, same throne, same Judge, different attendees.  😁

That is exactly the point and one is: examination of rewards the other works and thus my question of the passage 2Cor 5:1-9 is speaking to saved ones but 
2 Corinthians 5:10 (KJV)

[10] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

[11] Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

seems to be speaking of about both events... due to the bad things being shown and terror of the Lord... 

This is what I am want to work on together to gain some insight to this...

[FreeGrace]

On 3/1/2025 at 3:44 AM, enoob57 said:

That is exactly the point and one is: examination of rewards the other works and thus my question of the passage 2Cor 5:1-9 is speaking to saved ones but 
2 Corinthians 5:10 (KJV)

[10] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

[11] Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

seems to be speaking of about both events... due to the bad things being shown and terror of the Lord... 

This is what I am want to work on together to gain some insight to this...

Seems Paul is trying to encourage believers to strive for rewards, rather than face the "terror (wrath) of the Lord", over the "bad things" that will be evaluated at the Bema.

It seems real clear to me that the Bema and GWT judgment will be 1,000 years apart, based on Rev 20:5 - (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Context from v.4 is the resurrection of believers at the Second Advent, even though it only mentions trib martyrs.  1 Cor 15:23 clearly says that "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes".

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Seems Paul is trying to encourage believers to strive for rewards, rather than face the "terror (wrath) of the Lord", over the "bad things" that will be evaluated at the Bema.

That's the problem your determining judgment seat of Christ to be rewards and not great white throne!

 

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

It seems real clear to me that the Bema and GWT judgment will be 1,000 years apart, based on Rev 20:5 - (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

This has no bearing whatsoever about the thing in question...

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Context from v.4 is the resurrection of believers at the Second Advent, even though it only mentions trib martyrs.  1 Cor 15:23 clearly says that "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes".

So where does the terror come from at rewards? It definitely will be at the GWT...

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

That's the problem your determining judgment seat of Christ to be rewards and not great white throne!

It seems clear to me that 3 verses teach that there will be a (singular) resurrection for the saved and a (singular) resurrection for the unsaved:  Dan 12:2, Joh n 5:29 and Acts 24:15.  Rev 20:5 clearly shows them being 1,000 years apart.  We know that the Bema will not end in being cast into the LOF since the Bible teaches eternal security.

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

This has no bearing whatsoever about the thing in question...

So where does the terror come from at rewards? It definitely will be at the GWT...

2 Cor 5:11 is "terror" in the KJV, but "fear for the Lord" in most others.  That word refers to respect, not being afraid.  

[enoob57]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

2 Cor 5:11 is "terror" in the KJV, but "fear for the Lord" in most others.  That word refers to respect, not being afraid.  

So why in the place where there will be no condemnation and no flesh
Romans 8:1 (KJV)

[8:1] There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 

should there be fear... especially where there's perfect love with Christ
1 John 4:18 (KJV)

[18] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

This is what has raised questions for me and why I seek answers... and so far I am understanding that the passage is speaking of both places of Christ setting in judgment and 'We all' is addressing both groups...

If I am correct the verse would be more about encouragement toward evangelism for us the Church who will sit at rewards rather than those being judged for their works
Revelation 20:12 (KJV)

[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

[FreeGrace]

13 hours ago, enoob57 said:

So why in the place where there will be no condemnation and no flesh
Romans 8:1 (KJV)

[8:1] There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 

should there be fear... especially where there's perfect love with Christ

As I pointed out, the Greek word is used in two ways:

phobos: Fear, terror, reverence, respect

Original Word: φόβος
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: phobos
Pronunciation: FOH-bos
Phonetic Spelling: (fob'-os)
Definition: Fear, terror, reverence, respect
Meaning: (a) fear, terror, alarm, (b) the object or cause of fear, (c) reverence, respect.

Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - H3374 (yirah): Fear, reverence, piety

- H3373 (yare): Fearful, afraid, reverent

Usage: In the New Testament, "phobos" primarily denotes a sense of fear or terror, often in response to the divine or supernatural. It can also imply reverence or awe, particularly in the context of the fear of the Lord, which is a profound respect and recognition of God's power and holiness. The term is used both in a negative sense, as in fear of danger or judgment, and in a positive sense, as in reverence for God.

Cultural and Historical Background: In the Greco-Roman world, "phobos" was commonly associated with fear of the gods, natural phenomena, or military threats. In Jewish thought, the fear of the Lord was a central theme, emphasizing a relationship with God characterized by awe, obedience, and worship. This dual aspect of fear—both as terror and reverence—reflects the broader cultural understanding of the divine as both protector and judge.

Seems to me that believers should and will respect and revere the King's judgment on our lives on earth, whether they have been "good or bad", as v.10 says.

The terror part would refer to our bad behavior, and how much reward we'll lose/miss out on.  But also, respect and awe for the King's perfect judgment regarding our lives.

13 hours ago, enoob57 said:

1 John 4:18 (KJV)

[18] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

This is what has raised questions for me and why I seek answers... and so far I am understanding that the passage is speaking of both places of Christ setting in judgment and 'We all' is addressing both groups...

We know from the fact that there will be a resurrection for both the saved and unsaved, and 1 Cor 15:23 clearly shows that "those who belong to Him" (all saved people) will be resurrected "when He comes", a reference to the Second Advent.  Then, Rev 20:5 shows the "first" resurrection (of believers) will be 1,000 years before the second resurrection (of unbelievers), followed immediately by the GWT judgment, which will be for unbelievers only.

So the Bema is for believers and the GWT is for unbelievers.

13 hours ago, enoob57 said:

If I am correct the verse would be more about encouragement toward evangelism for us the Church who will sit at rewards rather than those being judged for their works
Revelation 20:12 (KJV)

[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Since all believers will already have been resurrected and glorified 1,000 years before the GWT judgment, this can only be for all unbelievers.

[enoob57]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

As I pointed out, the Greek word is used in two ways:

phobos: Fear, terror, reverence, respect

Original Word: φόβος
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: phobos
Pronunciation: FOH-bos
Phonetic Spelling: (fob'-os)
Definition: Fear, terror, reverence, respect
Meaning: (a) fear, terror, alarm, (b) the object or cause of fear, (c) reverence, respect.

Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - H3374 (yirah): Fear, reverence, piety

- H3373 (yare): Fearful, afraid, reverent

Usage: In the New Testament, "phobos" primarily denotes a sense of fear or terror, often in response to the divine or supernatural. It can also imply reverence or awe, particularly in the context of the fear of the Lord, which is a profound respect and recognition of God's power and holiness. The term is used both in a negative sense, as in fear of danger or judgment, and in a positive sense, as in reverence for God.

Cultural and Historical Background: In the Greco-Roman world, "phobos" was commonly associated with fear of the gods, natural phenomena, or military threats. In Jewish thought, the fear of the Lord was a central theme, emphasizing a relationship with God characterized by awe, obedience, and worship. This dual aspect of fear—both as terror and reverence—reflects the broader cultural understanding of the divine as both protector and judge.

Seems to me that believers should and will respect and revere the King's judgment on our lives on earth, whether they have been "good or bad", as v.10 says.

The terror part would refer to our bad behavior, and how much reward we'll lose/miss out on.  But also, respect and awe for the King's perfect judgment regarding our lives.

We know from the fact that there will be a resurrection for both the saved and unsaved, and 1 Cor 15:23 clearly shows that "those who belong to Him" (all saved people) will be resurrected "when He comes", a reference to the Second Advent.  Then, Rev 20:5 shows the "first" resurrection (of believers) will be 1,000 years before the second resurrection (of unbelievers), followed immediately by the GWT judgment, which will be for unbelievers only.

So the Bema is for believers and the GWT is for unbelievers.

Since all believers will already have been resurrected and glorified 1,000 years before the GWT judgment, this can only be for all unbelievers.

We're not connecting on what I am getting at the context of 2Cor 5:10-12... thanks for your effort!

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

We're not connecting on what I am getting at the context of 2Cor 5:10-12... thanks for your effort!

I thought we were.  What am I missing?  Believers are to be in awe of the King's justice and afraid of what we'll miss out on reward.