Christ's kingdom will never be physically on this earth

[truth7t7]

20 hours ago, dad2 said:

Some people interpret that as being about the Millennium. Looking at the verse before it does say the earth.

 

Isaiah 65:16

That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.

 

 That seems to set the scene on earth. The thing is, at that same time, heaven will also be very much a factor in life on earth. For example, we probably will commute from New Jerusalem to earth and back in out duties helping Jesus rule the earth.

 

 Then again in verse 18 it talks about Jerusalem, which is on earth.

Isaiah 65:18

But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

 

 We know He rules from Jerusalem on earth in the 1000 years. That does not mean that He also does not live in or go to New Jerusalem.

So I would say that the chapter contains references to both, the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth, as well as the new heavens and earth. The final verses in the chapter sound a lot like life on earth. Farming, building houses, planting vineyards, having offspring etc.

 In the place Jesus prepared, He built the houses for us. We live forever, so saying that we would 'long enjoy the work of our hands' in heaven does not seem to be the best description, but does fit the people living on earth in the millennium.

In order for you to omit the first part of the eternal rule of Jesus which is on earth, and make all passages only fit heaven, you have to basically change the meaning of the person dying.  You must turn it into a 'figure of speech'. It is not a figure that fits heaven at all. There is NO death there.

 Your attempt at making Rev 21 a parallel passage doesn't work either. In Rev 21 it clearly talks about NEW Jerusalem. In Isa it just talks about Jerusalem. I suggest that it is not correct to conflate all the verses in Isa 65 with being exclusive to the new heavens and new earth.

It will be a completly "New Creation" just as God created in the beginning בָּרָא bârâʼ 

Lexicon :: Strong's H1254 - bārā'

Strong’s Definitions:

בָּרָא bârâʼ, baw-raw'; a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; 

Gen 1:1 - In the beginning God created H1254 the heaven and the earth.

Isa 65:17 - For, behold, I create H1254 new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 65:18 - But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: H1254 for, behold, I create H1254 Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

Edited 20 hours ago by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

19 hours ago, dad2 said:

Some people interpret that as being about the Millennium. Looking at the verse before it does say the earth.

 

Isaiah 65:16

That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.

 

 That seems to set the scene on earth. The thing is, at that same time, heaven will also be very much a factor in life on earth. For example, we probably will commute from New Jerusalem to earth and back in out duties helping Jesus rule the earth.

 

 Then again in verse 18 it talks about Jerusalem, which is on earth.

Isaiah 65:18

But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

 

 We know He rules from Jerusalem on earth in the 1000 years. That does not mean that He also does not live in or go to New Jerusalem.

So I would say that the chapter contains references to both, the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth, as well as the new heavens and earth. The final verses in the chapter sound a lot like life on earth. Farming, building houses, planting vineyards, having offspring etc.

 In the place Jesus prepared, He built the houses for us. We live forever, so saying that we would 'long enjoy the work of our hands' in heaven does not seem to be the best description, but does fit the people living on earth in the millennium.

In order for you to omit the first part of the eternal rule of Jesus which is on earth, and make all passages only fit heaven, you have to basically change the meaning of the person dying.  You must turn it into a 'figure of speech'. It is not a figure that fits heaven at all. There is NO death there.

 Your attempt at making Rev 21 a parallel passage doesn't work either. In Rev 21 it clearly talks about NEW Jerusalem. In Isa it just talks about Jerusalem. I suggest that it is not correct to conflate all the verses in Isa 65 with being exclusive to the new heavens and new earth.

The present heavens and earth will be dissolved by the Lord's fire in final judgement as 2 Peter 3:10-13 below clearly teaches

We go to Revelation 21:1-5 below and it clearly tells the reader it's a new heaven and earth, the old heaven and earth are passed away

Revelation 21:5 below teaches the reader that God makes all things new, a "New Creation"

Isaiah 65:17 God teaches the reader (Behold I "CREATE" New Heavens and a New Earth) a completely "New Creation"

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Isaiah 65:17KJV

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

[luigi]

I wonder if maybe that when the Lord returns with His myriads of saints, and commences His thousand year reign--that it still is not the time when all things are made new (including Jerusalem), which occurs at the end of the millennium reign?

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, luigi said:

I wonder if maybe that when the Lord returns with His myriads of saints, and commences His thousand year reign--that it still is not the time when all things are made new (including Jerusalem), which occurs at the end of the millennium reign?

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV

2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV

6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth 

Psalm 50:3KJV

3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV

5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV

15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV

5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, luigi said:

I wonder if maybe that when the Lord returns with His myriads of saints, and commences His thousand year reign--that it still is not the time when all things are made new (including Jerusalem), which occurs at the end of the millennium reign?

Paul clearly taught that when Jesus returns the resurrection of the dead takes place, (Then Cometh The End) its that simple (The End) not a 1,000 year kingdom on this earth as many "Falsely" claim

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The scripture above is in perfect agreement with Jesus being revealed in fire and brimstone as seen below (Then Cometh The End) as all the unsaved wicked are destroyed at the Lord's return

(Destroyed Them All)

Luke 17:29-30KJV

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

The resurrection of "All" is seen below and the wicked are judged to eternal damnation, this is when the "Final Judgement" takes place (The End)

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 Jesus clearly taught that the resurrection of "All" takes place on "The Last Day" this is in perfect agreement with the scripture above

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

[dad2]

5 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

It will be a completly "New Creation" just as God created in the beginning בָּרָא bârâʼ 

Lexicon :: Strong's H1254 - bārā'

Strong’s Definitions:

בָּרָא bârâʼ, baw-raw'; a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; 

Gen 1:1 - In the beginning God created H1254 the heaven and the earth.

Isa 65:17 - For, behold, I create H1254 new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 65:18 - But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: H1254 for, behold, I create H1254 Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

The millennium is not entirely new. Same world. Same people. The point about Isa 65 is that it contains references to both. Not just the new heavens and earth. There is no death in the new earth and heaven. So a man dying at any age does not fit that. Period.

[dad2]

2 hours ago, luigi said:

I wonder if maybe that when the Lord returns with His myriads of saints, and commences His thousand year reign--that it still is not the time when all things are made new (including Jerusalem), which occurs at the end of the millennium reign?

Well I think we could say that that is the start of the time when all things will be made new. Not the completion which comes at the end of the 1000 year period

[dad2]

Quote

The present heavens and earth will be dissolved by the Lord's fire in final judgement as 2 Peter 3:10-13 below clearly teaches

Not the moment He returns though. You conflate all events in the 1000 years into one afternoon tea time

 

Quote

We go to Revelation 21:1-5 below and it clearly tells the reader it's a new heaven and earth, the old heaven and earth are passed away

That is because that is exactly what that verse is talking about. The time after the 1000 years when He does that.

 

Quote

Isaiah 65:17 God teaches the reader (Behold I "CREATE" New Heavens and a New Earth) a completely "New Creation"

Yes He sure does. And that will be after the 1000 years as Scripture clearly states. So when we see a bunch of prophesy, some dealing in the start of that period and some with the end and the new earth, that does not mean that it is all talking about the same day!

Quote

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The day of the Lord is a period that encompasses the 1000 years, so of course at the end we also will have the new earth. It COMES as a surprise (when He returns) And within that day of the Lord also, we will see a new heaven and earth. We know precisely when in that period it will be also. At the end of the 1000 years.

 

 So you have confused and mixed together elements in prophesy that span many many centuries. Normally a day is a day in the bible. In this case it is used as a phrase that involves 1000 years or so. That is the day of the Lord. It is funny that it is in the chapter that talks about the fire etc (Peter) that it is mentioned that a thousand years to God is as a day! That does not mean the six day creation was anything else but a day. A morning and evening. It does not mean Jesus stayed in the grave 3000 years. Etc etc. It just means that a period called the day of the Lord is a 1000 years.

[luigi]

5 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV

2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV

6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth 

Psalm 50:3KJV

3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV

5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV

15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV

5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

In Micah 5:2-3, we see the Lord giving up His days on earth (His crucifixion), until she which travaileth bringeth forth. Upon bringing forth, the remnant new born is then imbued with power, that wheresoever he traverses, he annihilates the unjust (Micah 5:4-9). This same travailing woman is described in Revelation 12, who brings forth a man child, who rules over the earth with a rod of iron (Revelation 12:5). This is the same rod of iron in Revelation 2:27, where those who overcome their love for this world currently under Satan, shall then rule over the worlds masses, along with the Lord in Revelation 19:15, during His millennium reign (Revelation 20:4).

If you have another explanation for who this remnant new born male child is, who rule over the worlds unjust masses for a thousand years; I am all ears.

[luigi]

5 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Paul clearly taught that when Jesus returns the resurrection of the dead takes place, (Then Cometh The End) its that simple (The End) not a 1,000 year kingdom on this earth as many "Falsely" claim

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The scripture above is in perfect agreement with Jesus being revealed in fire and brimstone as seen below (Then Cometh The End) as all the unsaved wicked are destroyed at the Lord's return

(Destroyed Them All)

Luke 17:29-30KJV

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

The resurrection of "All" is seen below and the wicked are judged to eternal damnation, this is when the "Final Judgement" takes place (The End)

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 Jesus clearly taught that the resurrection of "All" takes place on "The Last Day" this is in perfect agreement with the scripture above

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

When the Lord returns it is the end. There doors are closed for the marriage supper with the faithful just inside, while the unjust faithless masses are then without.

This is what Isaiah 60:1-3 describes, where the faithful just are rewarded with great illumination, while the Lord who has returned as a thief, then withdraws the small amount of illumination the faithless unjust currently have from Him, leaving them in abject darkness. The unjust masses of the world who are then in abject darkness, will go to the Lords enlightened for guidance.