Christ's kingdom will never be physically on this earth

[WilliamL]

On 5/31/2025 at 5:43 PM, Anne2 said:

One thing I noticed both shared a name.

Ge 48:16  The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them,

This name Israel

and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac;

These  also seem in this verse to share the same name on them: Israel?

Israel is also variously called ,,,Sons of Jacob, Sons of Israel, children of promise

Hence the surnames Jacobson, Isaacson (i.e., Saxons), and Abramson.

[WilliamL]

On 5/31/2025 at 8:07 PM, Luther said:

You quoted: "  Genesis 48:19 …but truly his [Manasseh’s] younger brother [Ephraim] shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become the fullness of the nations."

Do you mind if I ask you what translation that is? 

Primarily the NKJV, but corrected to accurately provide the literal Hebrew text. Explained here:

And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him… And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this [Manasseh] is the firstborn: put thy right hand upon his head. And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it…but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become the fullness of the nations. [Hebrew, וְזַרְעֹו יִהְיֶה מְלֹא־הַגֹּויִם; the Greek Septuagint has, kαι το σπέρμα αυτού έσται εις πλήθος εθνών: and his seed will be in (or, among) a multitude of nations. The KJV mostly follows the Septuagint; but see Rom. 11:25 in Part 3, where the [Paul's] Greek follows the Hebrew text.] Gen. 48:17-19

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2928-joseph-part-2-the-heritage-of-joseph/

Thanks for asking. The KJV authors, and the translators  that followed in their vein, had a bad habit (IMHO) of cherry-picking out some LXX versions of passages with which to replace the Hebrew, without explaining their justification for doing so. Another such bad example is their notoriously corrupted version of Daniel 9:27.

 

Edited Tuesday at 09:24 PM by WilliamL

[WilliamL]

On 6/2/2025 at 5:09 AM, FreeGrace said:

On 6/1/2025 at 8:26 PM, Jaydub said:

Was this a physical dragon or a  physical serpent?

Satan has been called a dragon for a very long time.  At one point, he indwelt a physical serpent.  Do you know biblical history?  Starts in Genesis

In Rev. 5, Jesus is called a lion, yet depicted as a lamb. These two images are different spiritual garments donned by the Son of God, according to the nature of the occasion. There is a big difference between spiritual beings and the garments and armor in which they are clothed. When Jesus appears as the slain Lamb in Revelation 5, He is wearing a heavenly garment that shows His righteous act as a sacrificial offering for redemption. When He appears with a sword in His mouth in Revelation 19, He is wearing the armor of the Sword of the Spirit. Such spiritual garments and armor portray the spiritual realities at the time, ones not seen by earthly eyes. When Satan appears in heaven as a red dragon, that is also a spiritual garment, one that accurately portrays his nature at that instant.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2950-the-24-elders-of-revelation-part-4-the-heavenly-appearance-of-the-lamb/

 

[Luther]

5 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

That conflicts with Rev 2:27 - He will rule them with an iron scepter, he will dash them to pieces like pottery.  Rev 12:5 - She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.  And her child was snatched up to God and his throne.   Rev 19:15 - Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword to strike down the nations.  He will rule them with an iron scepter.  He treads the winepress of fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

Why will He/Christ rule the nations in the New Heaven and New Earth with a rod of iron.  Which is a disciplinary tool.  All must not be well in the New Heaven.  OR Christ must rule with a rod of iron during the 1000 years, because the nations are still unruly.

Zech 8:20-23 - This is what the Lord Almighty says;  Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities, will yet come, and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say; "Let us go at once to entreat the Lord and seek the Lord Almighty.  I myself am going."  And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.. This is what the Lord Almighty says; "In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you."  So, God must not be with them.

This has never happened in the past.  Will this be in the New Heaven and the New Earth, No.  But during the 1000 year reign of Christ. This is when Christ will rule the nations with an iron scepter.  Not in the New Heaven or New Earth or the New Jerusalem.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

Because I find no evidence for a literal millennial reign in this current earth age, any verses that one will provide to support it I must do my due diligence.

Isaiah 11:4 KJV
But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

This is Christ coming for judgment in the last day. I believe the phrase "rule the nations" is judgment. This is an area where I should do a word study.

[Luther]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Primarily the NKJV, but corrected to accurately provide the literal Hebrew text. Explained here:

And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him… And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this [Manasseh] is the firstborn: put thy right hand upon his head. And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it…but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become the fullness of the nations. [Hebrew, וְזַרְעֹו יִהְיֶה מְלֹא־הַגֹּויִם; the Greek Septuagint has, kαι το σπέρμα αυτού έσται εις πλήθος εθνών: and his seed will be in (or, among) a multitude of nations. The KJV mostly follows the Septuagint; but see Rom. 11:25 in Part 3, where the [Paul's] Greek follows the Hebrew text.] Gen. 48:17-19

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2928-joseph-part-2-the-heritage-of-joseph/

Thanks for asking. The KJV authors, and the translators  that followed in their vein, had a bad habit (IMHO) of cherry-picking out some LXX versions of passages with which to replace the Hebrew, without explaining their justification for doing so. Another such bad example is their notoriously corrupted version of Daniel 9:27.

 

Oh  you're welcome I love this stuff.  It just looks like the King James has it right with multitude not fulness when you look at how the word fulness is actually used in the Old Testament. Now mind you I just took a quick glance.

[Montana Marv]

37 minutes ago, Luther said:

Because I find no evidence for a literal millennial reign in this current earth age, any verses that one will provide to support it I must do my due diligence.

And Rev 20 mentions 1000 years 6 times.  Bound, Ended, Reigned, Ended, Reign, Over

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Luther]

49 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

And Rev 20 mentions 1000 years 6 times.  Bound, Ended, Reigned, Ended, Reign, Over

In Christ

Montana Marv

Oh Marv, I've been very diligent in Revelation 20 for maybe 20 years now. The evidence is unescapable...... It's an allegory. 

If you don't mind (if you haven't already), look up the phrase " thousand years" in your concordance (besides the entries in Revelation 20)  and see if the context of those verses can be taken literally.

[truth7t7]

9 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Yes the Lord will rule them with a rod of iron.

Isa. 2:1-4 - In the last days the mountain of the Lord's temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised up above the hills, and all the nations will stream to it.  Many people's will come and say, come let us come to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.  The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.  He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples.  They will beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks.  Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.

So you believe that Jesus will be settling disputes in the New Heaven and New Earth.

Looks like there are swords and spears in your New Heaven and New Earth.  What gives.  They will be transformed for agriculture use.  Is that your objective in Eternity, be a farmer.

In Christ

Montana Marv

The kingdom seen in Isaiah 2:1-4 is "After" (The Day Of The Lord) takes place

The analogy of swords and spears being compared to plowshares and pruning hooks is in comparison to the old earth of war as compared to the new heaven and earth in eternal peace, its that simple

Isaiah 2:12-22KJV

12 For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan,

14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up,

15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall,

16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.

17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day.

18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish.

19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;

21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of ?

[Montana Marv]

7 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

The analogy of swords and spears being compared to plowshares and pruning hooks is in comparison to the old earth of war as compared to the new heaven and earth in eternal peace, its that simple

Not an analogy;  The people transform their swords and spears into plowshares and pruning hooks.  They become farmers.  They grow grain, they prune trees.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[truth7t7]

49 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Not an analogy;  The people transform their swords and spears into plowshares and pruning hooks.  They become farmers.  They grow grain, they prune trees.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

"Wrong" it's 100% an analogy 

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment "Dissolving" this earth by fire down to its very "Elements" man made swords and spears won't survive "The Day Of The Lord" 2 Peter 3:10-13 below

It's very apparent you desire to see a mortal kingdom on this earth for 1,000 years at the Lord's return

"Problem" it doesn't exist in scripture

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV

2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV

6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV

3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV

5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV

15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV

5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Edited Wednesday at 04:18 AM by truth7t7