Yes, Jesus meant TODAY in his message to the thief on the cross

[Your closest friendnt]

21 hours ago, Luther said:

You said: " No one of the religions of the Jewish neighbors had these religious beliefs. Not even the Jews. Definitely not the Jews. Never the Jews. "

So are you saying that the jews didn't have these beliefs? 🤣🤣🤣

Some of the Sadducees had some kind of beliefs to that effect. Or some small group within the Sadducees may have beliefs of this kind but not exactly. 

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, Frits said:

The Lord Jesus Christ has shown that the writer of Ecclesiastes did not know what he was talking about when he spoke about the dead!

This becomes clear when we compare Scripture with Scripture.

Ecclesiastes writes in 12:7:

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

The first part of verse 7 is correct, because the body, the mortal remains of the deceased people decomposes, it is dust that returns to the earth. But about the second part of verse 7, "and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it", the Lord Jesus Christ has explained that better.

When the loveless person dies, then his spirit lifts its eyes to basanos, a place of torment! (Luke 16:23)

Whereas the spirit of the person who believes in the true God, is carried in the bosom of Abraham after his death. (Luke 16:22) 

"Lazarus" means: God has helped.

The truth that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself revealed about the condition after death, is not the same for every person!

We can state with certainty that after death there is spiritual consciousness in both good people and bad people; they can remember the situation when they were still on earth, they can feel, they can see, they can hear, and the good people drink of the water of life.

Explaining Scripture with Scripture:

Ecclesiastes wrote, "but the dead know not any thing". (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

While Abraham said to the rich man: "But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented." 

(Luke 16:25)

Dear brother, the writer of Ecclesiastics could be mentally retarded and ALL he said would be true. The writer was inspired. His words are "God breathed". Once you deviate from an absolute belief in the truth of this, you make mistakes.

A man is made of three parts - body, soul and spirit (Gen.3:7, 1st Thess.5:23). From the moment of creation in Genesis 3, man is called a SOUL. In Acts 2:24-34 a Psalm is quoted by Peter in which David wrote of the Lord Jesus. It reported that God would not leave His SOUL in Hades. At the moment of His death in Luke 24, Jesus gave UP His spirit to the Father. Ecclesiastes 12:7 is absolutely true and Jesus followed, like all men that die, the truth of "He gave UP the ghost". His SOUL descended to Hades.

The truth that Jesus followed an established pattern is true for ALL men. If one man does something different, Jesus looses His PREEMINENCE in ALL things.

Your next mistake is to entitle the rich man of Luke 16 "loveless". He is not recorded as being loveless. He is recorded as calling Abraham "father" which makes him a Jew. If so, the he broke the Law with Lazarus (Deut.15:7). But judgment only comes after RESURRECTION (Dan.12:2). He could not possibly have been in torment by an action of God, otherwise he would have to have been resurrected. All men, including Jesus, are only judged after they are RISEN.

Your next mistake is Luke 16:22 does not say GOOD people are carried to Abraham's Bosom. How good were Abraham's fathers to which He was GATHERED TO? Where they not idol worshipers? (Gen.15:15, Josh.24:2).

You see brother, the man who starts a rumor that scripture is not accurate starts to make mistakes. I'm sure you are fervent brother who loves the Word, but if you change anything in scripture you are on the way to disaster.

[Your closest friendnt]

21 hours ago, Luther said:

You said: " No one of the religions of the Jewish neighbors had these religious beliefs. Not even the Jews. Definitely not the Jews. Never the Jews. "

So are you saying that the jews didn't have these beliefs? 🤣🤣🤣

In the book of Ecclesiastes which the lesson is to the people who read it that God does not want them to worship their ancestors and call upon them to be their protectors and their guides in this life and they made shrines to them after they died and they burned incense to them and they welcomed them to come in their midst and offered them food to them. 

These were the instructions to live the dead alone and not to used mediums to bring them up from the place of the dead and asked them for advice or to reveal to them a secret they took with them when they died. 

The point was to help the Israelites to put their Hope to their God and to pray to him only. 

[Your closest friendnt]

21 hours ago, Luther said:

You said: " No one of the religions of the Jewish neighbors had these religious beliefs. Not even the Jews. Definitely not the Jews. Never the Jews. "

So are you saying that the jews didn't have these beliefs? 🤣🤣🤣

The book of Ecclesiastes does not instruct the people that as the children of Abraham they need to keep the Covenant of Cirumcision. 

If that the case it may be placed that it was written by someone who had knowledge of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and the Covenant God made with him. 

Abraham had teach his children not to worshiped their ancestors and call upon them this is one of the reasons God complement Abraham because Abraham had put all his eggs in Him and he never called upon any other God or his Ancestors to bless him with children. 

There is nothing in the book of Ecclesiastes to hinder that there is knowledge of the book of Leviticus in it about the Temple and the Priesthood and the sacrifices in the book of the Law and specifically to follow the religious Calendar and the instruction in it and the sanctification through the Leviticus book. 

 

[Locust]

11 hours ago, Frits said:

The Lord Jesus Christ has shown that the writer of Ecclesiastes did not know what he was talking about when he spoke about the dead!

This becomes clear when we compare Scripture with Scripture.

Ecclesiastes writes in 12:7:

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

The first part of verse 7 is correct, because the body, the mortal remains of the deceased people decomposes, it is dust that returns to the earth. But about the second part of verse 7, "and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it", the Lord Jesus Christ has explained that better.

When the loveless person dies, then his spirit lifts its eyes to basanos, a place of torment! (Luke 16:23)

Whereas the spirit of the person who believes in the true God, is carried in the bosom of Abraham after his death. (Luke 16:22) 

"Lazarus" means: God has helped.

The truth that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself revealed about the condition after death, is not the same for every person!

We can state with certainty that after death there is spiritual consciousness in both good people and bad people; they can remember the situation when they were still on earth, they can feel, they can see, they can hear, and the good people drink of the water of life.

Explaining Scripture with Scripture:

Ecclesiastes wrote, "but the dead know not any thing". (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

While Abraham said to the rich man: "But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented." 

(Luke 16:25)

a  parable ? did you just try to use that parable and make it a reality ? it was nothing more than a story told to illiterate a point .

[Luther]

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

The Lord God Almighty said to Moses something that sook him up.

When he said to him in

Exodus 3:6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God. God told him that he is also his God. 

To Abraham in Genesis 15:15

15 You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age.

Mathew 22:32  English Standard Version
‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”

Berean Standard Bible
‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

The Jews were arguing with Jesus that their Father was Abraham which was truth within the Covenant of Sinai and that they cannot perish. Because Jesus told them that they will perish if they do not believe in him.  

Jesus was referring in the New Covenant when the disciples will preached the Gospel to them after his death on the Cross, forgiveness in his name. 

Before the Cross the Jews were right because their inheritance after death was to be gathered to their Patriarch Abraham their Father the Father of Cirumcision. With Moses the Cirumcision was. Codify in the Law of the covenant of Sinai. 

Their inheritance was the inheritance God bestowed to Abraham and his chosen seed to Issac and Jacob and all the children of the Sons of Jacob the Israelites the Nation of God in the Old Covenant. 

God set them apart from the rest of the world while they lived and also set them apart from the rest of the dead of the world. And they were gathered at death to the Bossom of Abraham or to the Paradise of Abraham. At death they descend to Abraham in Sheol in the earth waiting for Jesus the Christ of God the Savior to take them under his wing in his name to give them of his life and make them heirs of his Heavenly Inheritance. 

Now as citizens of Heaven together with Jesus they ascended to their Heavenly Inheritance because Jesus opened the way to Heaven. 

In other words God had promised them the Heavenly Inheritance but they had to wait till Jesus Christ open the way to the Heavenly Inheritance to Heaven  

This acronym might help:

I - Israelites from the  Old Testament

S - Sanctified by God,

R - (a) Resurrected Remnant 

A- At the same time with Christians,  the NEW Testament " Tribe of Judah" in the last day when Jesus comes to ....

E- End this world,

L - Looking forward to a " new heavens and earth"

2 Peter 3:7,12-13 KJV

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment * and perdition of ungodly men.

* ( The day of judgment is the last day, hence " day". )

[12] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

[13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

[Luther]

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Some of the Sadducees had some kind of beliefs to that effect. Or some small group within the Sadducees may have beliefs of this kind but not exactly. 

It was supposed to be funny. 

[Luther]

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

In the book of Ecclesiastes which the lesson is to the people who read it that God does not want them to worship their ancestors and call upon them to be their protectors and their guides in this life and they made shrines to them after they died and they burned incense to them and they welcomed them to come in their midst and offered them food to them. 

These were the instructions to live the dead alone and not to used mediums to bring them up from the place of the dead and asked them for advice or to reveal to them a secret they took with them when they died. 

The point was to help the Israelites to put their Hope to their God and to pray to him only. 

Yes, there was great confusion going on as well because Israel was also mixed in with the Caananites, hence the constant backsliding and resistance to Moses. Moses gave the pure words of God in the 10 commandments, to do good and treat humanity as we are all created by God, not what you saw them do back then* and see today. There is no superior race.

The "seed of Israel" ( Old Testament language) which is carried through into the New Testament are the saved of the nations, not a superior race. Of any particular tribe.

I truly believe that once that barrier is broken through, ( and it will take great effort due to this " spell" put upon the Christian Church), We will understand that God's law is to NEVER destroy innocent life. 

* I must add that when God instructed Israel to take life in war IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, it was a measured response from Him. And their failure to obey God cost them the kingdom. And as we observe today, God has nothing to do with these wars as they would have everyone believe. IMHO I consider it pure evil to say " thus saith the LORD"....we need more 2000 lb bunker busters. 

Edited April 21 by Luther
Had to clarify

[Frits]

3 hours ago, Locust said:

a  parable ? did you just try to use that parable and make it a reality ? it was nothing more than a story told to illiterate a point .

Yes, I did, and it could not be otherwise, because it says of the Lord Jesus Christ:

"All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them" (Mat 13:34)

But does that make the content of His parables any less true? The Lord Jesus Christ used parables precisely to reveal the reality, 'which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.' (v35)

 

[JohnD]

Luke 23:43 Jesus said to the thief on the cross who believed in him "today you will be with me in paradise."

The only passages in scripture the word paradise appear in are:

Luke 23:43

2 Corinthians 12:4

Revelation 2:7

Each one refers to Heaven where God is.

Jesus in his body laid in the tomb (heart of the earth) three days and three nights (Matthew 12:39-40) but his 

Spirit (which is eternal and cannot die) descended to sheol to announce the victory to all sides there (1 Peter 3:18-19)

then took the inhabitants of Abraham's Bosom to heaven that self same day (Ephesians 4:8-10) in that three hour

time span from his death on the cross at 3 PM till sunset 14 Nisan 32 CE.

Since the cross all who die in Christ go directly to heaven in spirit (2 Corinthians 5:8).

The thief on the cross who died after Jesus died was the first Christian believer to go directly to heaven in death.

Later, when Jesus was raised from the dead and said in John 20:17 that he had not yet ascended to the Father, he was referring

to his resurrected form. He had not ascended to the Father in his resurrected form yet. But in his disembodied Spirit, he had been

in heaven for almost every hour of the three days and and three nights his body laid lifeless in the tomb.