1 Thessalonians 4:14

[enoob57]

Here is a good treatise on this subject
What is the order for the resurrection of the saints? | Verse By Verse Ministry International

[Marston]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Yes, when Jesus comes He will bring all the spirits of the Christians who had died...

So those spirits will be enjoying Heaven and then will return with Jesus in order that their spirits will go into their new, glorified, bodies?

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Marston said:

So those spirits will be enjoying Heaven and then will return with Jesus in order that their spirits will go into their new, glorified, bodies?

Yes, they are awaiting the city which will come down out of heaven to the Universal realm. (Heb. 11: 16    Rev. 21: 1 & 2)

We, the Body of Christ, however, have a higher calling in the third heaven with Christ on His throne. (Rev. 3: 21) 

[Luther]

17 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Actually only those IN CHRIST will come when the Lord is sent to gather His Body. 

`God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.` (1 Thess. 4: 14)

Luther, you are confusing the purposes of the 3 groups - Body of Christ, Israel and the Nations. Different groups and different inheritances. 

People are only of the chosen (in Christ) when they receive Jesus not before.

And John 5: 28 & 29 revealing the resurrection of the dead, is at the end of the millennium. Note - in the graves. At the rapture many will NOT be in the graves. Different time, different purpose. 

What makes you believe that being caught up with Jesus and the resurrection isn't the same time? 

[Marilyn C]

5 hours ago, Luther said:

What makes you believe that being caught up with Jesus and the resurrection isn't the same time? 

Good question there Luther. The resurrection of John 5: 28 & 29 refers to ALL in the graves. That is NOT the situation when the Lord comes to bring all His Body to gather; those asleep with Him and those alive as well.

[Luther]

46 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Good question there Luther. The resurrection of John 5: 28 & 29 refers to ALL in the graves. That is NOT the situation when the Lord comes to bring all His Body to gather; those asleep with Him and those alive as well.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

These two verses are probably the most popular when it comes to the  "rapture". 

"and the dead in Christ shall rise first"

John 11:24 KJV

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Lazarus was " dead in Christ". 

Acts 24:15,21 KJV

And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. [21] Except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day.

The " resurrection of the dead" includes the  saved and unsaved dead. 

1 Corinthians 15:20,23 KJV
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The firstfruits are the dead in Christ and afterwards those who are alive and remain. 

1 Corinthians 15:42,51-52 KJV

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

" We shall be changed" are those who are alive and remain. 

Revelation 20:6 KJV

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The " first ( or "chief") resurrection" is the resurrection of the last day. There is no language anywhere of a " second" resurrection in the Bible because there is only one resurrection at one time, the last day. 

The " second death" is literally the  "resurrection of damnation" as we read in John 5.

( My belief of what the Bible teaches about " hell") :

I believe that the bodily remains of the unsaved will be resurrected from the graves to the surface of the earth, and that's it. There is no eternal place of torture for the unsaved. The very fact that they will not be with God forever is punishment enough. God is merciful, even to the unsaved. 

I am able to support my claim with many verses. Thank you. 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, Luther said:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

These two verses are probably the most popular when it comes to the  "rapture". 

"and the dead in Christ shall rise first"

John 11:24 KJV

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Lazarus was " dead in Christ". 

Acts 24:15,21 KJV

And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. [21] Except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day.

The " resurrection of the dead" includes the  saved and unsaved dead. 

1 Corinthians 15:20,23 KJV
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The firstfruits are the dead in Christ and afterwards those who are alive and remain. 

1 Corinthians 15:42,51-52 KJV

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

" We shall be changed" are those who are alive and remain. 

Revelation 20:6 KJV

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The " first ( or "chief") resurrection" is the resurrection of the last day. There is no language anywhere of a " second" resurrection in the Bible because there is only one resurrection at one time, the last day. 

The " second death" is literally the  "resurrection of damnation" as we read in John 5.

( My belief of what the Bible teaches about " hell") :

I believe that the bodily remains of the unsaved will be resurrected from the graves to the surface of the earth, and that's it. There is no eternal place of torture for the unsaved. The very fact that they will not be with God forever is punishment enough. God is merciful, even to the unsaved. 

I am able to support my claim with many verses. Thank you. 

 

 

Hi Luther,

Let`s look at what Jesus said in John 5: 28 & 29 -

`Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which ALL who are in graves will hear His voice and come forth - those who have done good to the resurrection of LIFE, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

1. Resurrection to LIFE.

2. Resurrection of condemnation.

Two TYPES of resurrection - LIFE or CONDMENATION.  NOT two times but TYPES whether for LIFE or condemnation.

The Body of Christ is only those whom the Holy Spirit has set in the Body after the Lord ascended and the Father made Him head of the Body. It was not possible to be in the Body prior to that. The OT saints are called `the spirits of just men. `(Heb. 12: 23) and are a separate group than the church the Body of Christ. (Heb. 12: 23) They are all in heaven and NOT in the graves. They await their different inheritances.

It is at the great white throne judgment at the end of the millennium that those in the graves are judged. Some will be resurrected to LIFE with a new earthly body and go on the new earth, while others will be resurrected to condemnation. They will not be given a new body but will live in their soul area which they chose, to be selfish and not God obedient.

They can`t see, hear, taste, speak etc of all the good things God had provided on earth which they never gave Him thanks. They wanted their own life and so they will have that forever. They can think in their mind or what they did have, and will get emotional because they rejected God`s grace and mercy. 

[Luther]

On 3/12/2025 at 8:24 PM, Marilyn C said:

Actually only those IN CHRIST will come when the Lord is sent to gather His Body. 

`God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.` (1 Thess. 4: 14)

Luther, you are confusing the purposes of the 3 groups - Body of Christ, Israel and the Nations. Different groups and different inheritances. 

People are only of the chosen (in Christ) when they receive Jesus not before.

And John 5: 28 & 29 revealing the resurrection of the dead, is at the end of the millennium. Note - in the graves. At the rapture many will NOT be in the graves. Different time, different purpose. 

I was looking at Hebrews 12:23 KJV:

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

[v.28] Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

I believe these verses would apply to everyone who becomes saved, OT-NT. 

Look at  "the spirits of just men made perfect,"

 Perfect: Transliteration: teleioō Pronunciation: tel-i-o'-o

Definition: From G5046; to complete that is (literally) accomplish or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate finish fulfil (make) perfect.

KJV Usage: make perfect (12x), perfect (4x), finish (4x), fulfil (2x), be perfect (1x), consecrate (1x).

I find it revealing that at the " rapture"  (which I believe the resurrection of the " just and the unjust" occurring one time at the last day), the " spirits of just men" ( whom I would consider everyone in Christ, OT- NT) will be united with their new resurrected bodies, thus being "made perfect", "accomplished ",  "consummated". 

The context of the chapter is clear. Receiving a kingdom that cannot be moved, and the Lord ( coming) as a consuming fire. This is the last day. 

What say you? 

[WilliamL]

On 3/13/2025 at 6:32 PM, Luther said:

Acts 24:15,21 KJV And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. [21] Except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day.

The " resurrection of the dead" includes the  saved and unsaved dead. 

Correct. Also spoken of in Daniel:

Daniel 12:2 And multitudes of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Nothing either here nor in John 5:28-29 even hint about this resurrection of the just and the unjust being separated in time by 1000 years.

On 3/13/2025 at 6:32 PM, Luther said:

I believe that the bodily remains of the unsaved will be resurrected from the graves to the surface of the earth, and that's it. There is no eternal place of torture for the unsaved.

Not eternal; but there will be a very much a place of torment for the unsaved during the Millennium:

Isaiah 66:24 “And they shall go forth and look
Upon the carcases of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm shall not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
And they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”