the Resurrection

[Cntrysner]

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

If you had posted the full text, you would see (or maybe not) that:

1. We have an earthly Tabernacle from our mother, which, because of the corruption of Adam's seed (Rom.5.12-17), causes us to groan: Paul called it "this vile body" (Phil.3:21).

Yes, that is the problem “this vile flesh” and it must be put off, it is the body of sin and it must be destroyed (Rom 6:6) and dissolved (2Co 5:6). Phil 3:31 tells us we will receive a body like His glorious body. This glorious body is the body Christ received after He was transfigured and ascended back to the Father.

Joh 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 

Before creation Christ was one with the Father in one Spirit Body not a body of flesh and bone and definitely not a reconstituted body. It is said that no flesh will glory in God’s presence (1Co 1:29).

Christ described the one Spirit body that we have faith in and Paul verifies the oneness as one Spirit body.

Joh 17:21  That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.  

Eph 4:3  Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 
Eph 4:4  There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 
Eph 4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 
Eph 4:6  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

John described Christ’s glorified body as a light bright as the sun.

Rev 1:13  And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 
Rev 1:14  His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 
Rev 1:15  And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 
Rev 1:16  And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 
Rev 1:17  And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. 

Paul was struck blind by Christ’s ascended glorious transfigured image and it was definitely not the visual image of Christ resurrected.

Act 9:3  And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 
Act 9:4  And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:8  And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. 
Act 9:9  And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

Christ did not receive His glorified body until he returned to the Father and received the glory He had before the world began and before He took on flesh. Whatever form His resurrected body was it was not His glorified body after ascension.

Joh 7:39  (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Joh 16:7  Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 

Act 2:33  Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 
 

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

2. If we put it off in death we are then naked, which would cause us to groan.

Paul differs with you about the body at death …(2 Co 5:1-6)..when he is absent from the body he will not be found naked but clothed upon with a glorified body from heaven and if you are alive and believe in Christ you will never die (Joh 11:26).

2Co 5:4  For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened….the burden is the vile flesh and it wars against the spirit.
It is as Paul said in Gal 5:17...  For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 
 

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

3. The solution we seek is to be clothed with a body (Tabernacle) made in heaven. Philippians 3:21 above also says tha the "new" body made without hands is actually "changed". So also is ths thought represented in 1st Corinthians 15:35 onward in which the grammar says "IT" is planted ... "IT" (the same one) is raised. Our Lord also confirms this thought because He still had the wounds of the cross.

The new body…Php 3:21  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.  “Made in heaven” means not of earth’s elements.

1Co 15:37  And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be…
 

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

1st Corinthians dos not teach that one receives a new body at death. It teaches that the body is RESURRECTED. And in 15:23 it says that resurrection occurs, FOR CHRISTIANS, "AT HIS COMING". That is, from the putting off our earthly tabernacle till its resurrection, or putting the newly manufactured (with the same elements), YOU ARE NAKED. In Acts 2:25-34 David is "NOT ASCENDED" and his tomb (it can only be a tomb if it contains a body), is still in Jerusalem 50 days after Christ's resurrection, and 10 days after His ascension.

Christ has already come into this world in the form of the Holy Spirit and we that have faith in Christ were raised to walk in newness of life. The Lord is that Spirit….Our body is changed into Christ’s same image and it is not your old body of flesh reconstituted.

2Co 3:17  Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 
2Co 3:18  But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 

1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

As far as death is concerned… 

Joh 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him… Hath everlasting life means never die (Joh 11:26).
 

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Concerning being with the Lord, 2nd Corinthians 5, which we now discuss, says that "ABSENT for the body", we are with the Lord - confirming again that you put off your body at death. How could we then be BODILY present with the lord without a body? We can't. So how are we "with the Lord" IN DEATH? The answer is in John 4.

Paul said there is One body for those in Christ, just as the Father and the Son are One in one spiritual body before the world began we also shall be one with Them, no flesh body needed.

A believer at the moment of death is transfigured in the twinkling of an eye, they are never found naked but are clothed with a body that is eternal in heaven  (2 Co 5:1) and present with the Lord. This heavenly body has been in heaven eternally and again it is not one’s reconstituted flesh.
 

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

In John 4:24 the Lord establishes a new mode of worship. We are to worship him IN SPIRIT. That is, I do not have to go anywhere to worship the Lord like the Samaritans and/or the Jews. I worship him from my soul to His Spirit. That is the God-given way of fellowship in the New Testament. So, to receive worship, or have fellowship in death, we must be conscious  in our soul and Jesus must present in spirit. Psalm 139:7-14 says it clearly and plainly that if I make my bed in Sheol (Hades in the Greek), He will be there.

We worship God with our spirit and Christ the Hope of Glory (Col 1:27) is in us with His Spirit, it is spirit to Spirit, the same spirit that God breathed into Adam and he became a living soul. John was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day (Rev 1:10) and that is how he was able to witness and worship the Glorified Christ.
 

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

1. At death a man is torn asunder.

At death those that do not have faith in the higher calling (Php 3:14) which is ascension, not the grave, will descended in death. We that believe have eternal life and will be present with the Lord when death comes knocking.
 

 

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

He could not possibly be with the lord in Body because it is buried and corrupts

He will be present the Lord in the eternal body from heaven (2 Co 5:1-2).
 

 

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

2. At death no new body is given to a man. He received a rebuilt body at RESURRECTION

No rebuilt flesh body for the body of Christ, flesh is dirt and of the earth and it shall return to dirt.
 

 

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

3. The soul of man, the major part of him, goes to Hades where he has unhindered fellowship with the Lord Whose spirit is omnipresent.

Never heard that one before…“we need to go to Hades so we can have unhindered fellowship with the Lord“.

Hades is part of this world, we are not of this world and the captives were set free from that bondage when Christ descended. Christ’s is in us and will never leave us, no need to go to Hades for a unhindered fellowship.
 

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

4. According to Paul, who was shown these things, because the corruption of the flesh is not there to hinder, it is "far better" to be with the Lord in death than in life.

God is God of the living not the dead (Mat 22:32-31).
 

 

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

5. No man goes disembodied to heaven seeing as he is naked and unclean. He must wait for the resurrection. and subsequent Rapture. Note that dead RISE FIRST in 1st Thessalonians 4:12-17. ad TOGETHER with the Living, are caught away.
6. The LIVING do also not receive a different body. They are "CHANGED" (1st Cor.15:50-54)

No waiting…2Co 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 

Changed into Christ’s image (2 Co 3:18)…transfigured as Christ was to receive the eternal heavenly body.

Heb 10:5  Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:…a body is required to be sacrificed for sin. 

Joh 8:51  Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. 
Joh 8:52  Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. 

Believe in Christ and you will never die.
 

[Cntrysner]

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You quoted nobody, which is well and good. But it would interest me to know which denomination or sect says the things you addressed.

I thought it was you thus no quote...what denomination are you?

 

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Also, it puzzles me when you say in one sentence that Christ's divinity would never allow Jesus to be bodily dead in the grave

Did not say that, I said some say

Some try to tear Christ asunder saying… His body was dead in the grave,

When I said "His divinity would disallow such a thing" refered to the whole statement "His body was dead in the grave, His spirit returned to God, and His soul descended into hell".

We do know His flesh did not see corruption (Act 2:31).

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

with His soul in Hades and His spirit returned to God. But this is exactly what happened. And His divinity was in full consent. "I (emphatic) lay down my Life" and "I (emphatic) take it up again".

Christ was not merely a man.

Col 2:8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 
Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 

18 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Also, does 2nd Corinthians say that "God the Father was in Christ on the Cross ... and never left Him". What means then "Father, why have you FORSAKEN me¨"

2Co 5:19  To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Christ was forsaken in His flesh not His Spirit.

[Frits]

1 hour ago, Cntrysner said:

We worship God with our spirit and Christ the Hope of Glory (Col 1:27) is in us with His Spirit, it is spirit to Spirit, the same spirit that God breathed into Adam and he became a living soul. John was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day (Rev 1:10) and that is how he was able to witness and worship the Glorified Christ.

Thank you Br. Cntrysner for your good contribution. Could you perhaps say a little more and go a little deeper into what you mean with the first one:

 

"We worship God with our spirit and Christ the Hope of Glory (Col 1:27) is in us with His Spirit, it is spirit to Spirit, the same spirit that God breathed into Adam and he became a living soul."

[Michael37]

30 minutes ago, Cntrysner said:

We do know His flesh did not see corruption (Act 2:31).

It didn't have time to before it was resurrected.

If Christ didn't physically die then no perpetual, plenary sacrifice for sin has been made.

There are several Bible verses that refer to Christ being put to death in the flesh. A notable one is 1 Peter 3:18:

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit." (NIV)

"For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit;" (MKJV)

[Cntrysner]

8 minutes ago, Frits said:

Thank you Br. Cntrysner for your good contribution. Could you perhaps say a little more and go a little deeper into what you mean with the first one:

 

"We worship God with our spirit and Christ the Hope of Glory (Col 1:27) is in us with His Spirit, it is spirit to Spirit, the same spirit that God breathed into Adam and he became a living soul."

Spirit to spirit is how God communicates to the inner man (soul) by His spirit breath or words which gives life. This connection is complete via the Spirit entering us and transforming our spirit, it is a new birth by the Fathers seed who is Christ in us the Hope of Glory. The same Spirit seed in us when we leave our flesh body at death will transform us into the image of the ascended Christ which is a spiritual body.

[Cntrysner]

26 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

It didn't have time to before it was resurrected.

If Christ didn't physically die then no perpetual, plenary sacrifice for sin has been made.

There are several Bible verses that refer to Christ being put to death in the flesh. A notable one is 1 Peter 3:18:

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit." (NIV)

"For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit;" (MKJV)

Let me be clear, I believe Christ died in the flesh for our sins and His flesh body did not see corruption. I have said nothing to the contrary.

[Michael37]

20 minutes ago, Cntrysner said:

Let me be clear, I believe Christ died in the flesh for our sins and His flesh body did not see corruption. I have said nothing to the contrary.

Can you rephrase this passage below using quotation marks to separate what you are quoting from your own words, please. That would help to avoid misunderstanding.

On 3/14/2025 at 2:46 AM, Cntrysner said:

Some try to tear Christ asunder saying… His body was dead in the grave, His spirit returned to God, and His soul descended into hell. His divinity would disallow such a thing, Christ was not merely a man and became the life giving Spirit (1 Co 15:45). Christ took our sins into His flesh body and died in the flesh but not in His spirit or soul. Christ was never a damned disembodied spiritless soul and neither will we be if we are members of His ascended Body. God the Father was in Christ on the cross (2 Co 5:19) via the Holy Spirit and He never left Him.
 

 

[Cntrysner]

1 hour ago, Michael37 said:

Can you rephrase this passage below using quotation marks to separate what you are quoting from your own words, please. That would help to avoid misunderstanding.

 

Some try to tear Christ asunder saying…

paraphrasing---"""His body was dead in the grave, His spirit returned to God, and His soul descended into hell""".

His divinity would disallow such a thing, Christ was not merely a man and became the life giving Spirit (1 Co 15:45). Christ took our sins into His flesh body and died in the flesh but not in His spirit or soul. Christ was never a damned disembodied spiritless soul and neither will we be if we are members of His ascended Body. God the Father was in Christ on the cross (2 Co 5:19) via the Holy Spirit and He never left Him.

I also edited the original post.

[Frits]

2 hours ago, Cntrysner said:

Spirit to spirit is how God communicates to the inner man (soul) by His spirit breath or words which gives life. This connection is complete via the Spirit entering us and transforming our spirit, it is a new birth by the Fathers seed who is Christ in us the Hope of Glory. The same Spirit seed in us when we leave our flesh body at death will transform us into the image of the ascended Christ which is a spiritual body.

The reason I asked you to go into this a little deeper is that we want to get this matter of "spirit" a little clearer. I'll start in Genesis 1:

1) Everything, including Adam and the breath of life breathed into him through his nose, was created very good by God. (v31) There is still no mention of Adam's love for God, or that he has a desire to obey Him.

2) The Lord Jesus Christ says in Mat 11:28:
'Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.'
(Jer.31:25)
That is based on a choice and who will accept His invitation? But with us His words came into our hearts through hearing and we have loved Him with all our hearts, and worship Him as the true God.

3) Adam was created, so was his spirit. The Lord Jesus Christ was not created but He is the Holy Spirit from heaven. (1Cor.15:47, 2Cor.3:17)

We already saw it in the topic "rebirth". By hearing the words of the Lord Jesus Christ, man (who is in darkness because of sin) gets fellowship with God.
By believing that Jesus Christ is the true God, he is born again, through which he can leave the darkness and come into the light.

4) Once a sinner, but now no longer a sinner!

But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. (1Cor.6:17)

Could you accept this as an addition to your exegesis?

Edited March 15 by Frits

[AdHoc]

19 hours ago, Frits said:

King David most certainly ascended to heaven, but that happened at a different time than when he was 'dead and buried', as stated by Acts 2:29.

David ascended 'on high', at the moment that the Lord Jesus Christ delivered all the righteous people from the Old Testament (beginning with Abel) from the realm of the dead! David was certainly there, because he was a man after God's own heart. (Acts 13:22)

The Lord Jesus Christ went through the heavens and thereby subdued death and made it powerless, and when He went on high He took all the righteous 'captives' with Him. 

Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.” (Eph.4:8)

By the way, in the Bible a grave is also called a grave if there is no body in it anymore, look:

Luke 24

v2: And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. v3: And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.

Let's settle the matter with scripture. The dynamic translations you use are called that because the translator did not stick to the exact wording in the original. The correct rendering is "led captivity captive". Now, we have the choice. We can go by the plain language. If that is obscure we may not interpret with private interpretations (2nd Pet 1:20). We have to use scripture to interpret scripture. Now, the words "led captivity captive" does not remotely address heaven. That is a private unwarranted interpretation. Your meaning is contradictory. It means that the dead remain dead in heaven. 

Your meaning causes the dead (captivity) to remain in their captivity (death) except the dead captives are led to a new captivity. That is, Jesus is just the new prison warden. If they were enlivened they would not remain "Captivity" but "Freedom". But your private interpretation gets worse, for it is Lucifer who is accused of not letting his captives free (isa.14:17). But we have a case that is similar in the Bible.

The great captivity of the Bible is Israel's case. Some 700 years before our Lord Assyrian carried the northern Tribes into captivity. Approximately 100 years later, Babylon defeated Assyria and the captive Israelites had a new boss - Nebuchadnezzar. But they went NOWHERE. Captivity had been led captive. 70 years later Babylon was defeated by the Persians under Cyrus and again "captivity" was led captive. BUT HEY HAD GONE NOWHERE! Then Cyrus, so impressed with Isaiah predicting him by name some 150 years before, issued a decree ending the captivity. But 97% of the captives liked  their new home above God's heart's desire, so thy stayed in captivity (book of Esther).

Now, make of this captivity what you will, but;
1. Your interpretation defies the way things went
2. Your interpretation is contradctory
3. Your interpretation lets no captive FREE
4. Your interpretation ADDS heaven which is not mentioned
5. Your interpretation makes Jesus act similarly to Lucifer with his captives

But if you take only the facts of the "captivity" a different picture altogether emerges. Nebuchadnezzar defeats "captivity's" wardens and suddenly you have the captives of the captivity led "captive" by new boss WITHOUT GOING ANYWHERE So if we take the captivity of both northern and southern tribes, and have them remain where they were, but with two changes of boss, we have reasonable expanation which is in accordance with plain language.

I propose that the dead in Hades had a new Boss, Who Himself had defeated the captivity of death, but, as 1st Corinthians 15:23 says, will only open the gates of Hades " WHEN HE COMES". This make sense of the dead being RAISED (an upward motion) and would make sense of the direct statement that David HAS NOT ASCENDED and that his BODY is still in Jerusalem.

Finally, you were unable to bring another scripture which plainly says that the dead go to heaven. That is, your grand  doctrine of going to heaven is based on one obscure verse. If there were more, you would have brought them.

Now, it is your turn to explain Ephesians 4:8 and explain how the dead "RISE" if they are already ON HIGH?