Free from sin?

[Michael37]

2 hours ago, Live2believe said:

Are you sure that Paul's thorn in the flesh was sin? Where is it written?

The thorn itself was to keep Paul from indulging in exaltation of himself by the humiliation of constant buffeting, of that I am 1000% + infinity sure.

". . . lest I be exalted above measure." KJV and others.

2Co 12:7 " or because of these surpassingly great revelations. So to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me." Berean Study Bible.

No drama. A simple reason given in Scripture by the man himself.

The obvious conclusion is that Paul was capable of pride and conceit, but the hardships and oppositions he faced and endured as a consequence of preaching the Gospel, served to keep him humble.

[St_Worm2]

9 hours ago, Live2believe said:

I think there is no need to suggest anything, because John's words are very clear:

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9)

Hello Live2believe, the problem is, John's words are also clear in 1 John 1-2, yes, where he, the now elder Apostle John, includes not only Christians (at all levels of maturity in the faith) as those who need to continue to confess their sins to God whenever they commit them, but he includes himself, as well (please take note of the words in bold below).

1 John 1
8      If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 
9      If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 
10      If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. 

1 John 2
1      My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 
2      and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 
3      By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 
4      The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 
5      but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 
6      the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. 
7      Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. 
 8      On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining. 
9      The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. 
10      The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 
11      But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 

12      I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake. 
13      I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. 
14      I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one. 
 

So, how do we reconcile the above from the 1 John 1-2 with 1 John 3:9? I think that 1 John 3:9 in the ESV can help.

Quote

1 John 3
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

IOW, a true believer will not continue to make a ~practice~ of sinning (or living a sinful ~lifestyle~) like they used to do before coming to saving faith in Christ (nor will they continue to be impenitent when they sin).

God bless you!

--David!

Edited April 28 by St_Worm2
Formatting issues + 1 addition at the bottom!

[enoob57]

18 hours ago, Live2believe said:

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9)

Whenever you have two seemingly conflicting verses it is God's Word leading to a unity in truth of other direction!
1 John 1:8 (KJV)

[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I believe the answer to this quandary is found in Romans 7 where God tells us the flesh is flesh and is not redeemed as this sets up the war Paul speaks of here

Galatians 5:17 (KJV)

[17] For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

[18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

[19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

[20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

[21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

This is why God tells us to 

Romans 6:11 (KJV)

[11] Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[12] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

[13] Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

[14] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

[15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

I am so grateful to God that at the rapture we will be given new bodies that are compatible to perfection....

 

[Alive]

7 hours ago, Michael37 said:

The thorn itself was to keep Paul from indulging in exaltation of himself by the humiliation of constant buffeting, of that I am 1000% + infinity sure.

". . . lest I be exalted above measure." KJV and others.

2Co 12:7 " or because of these surpassingly great revelations. So to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me." Berean Study Bible.

No drama. A simple reason given in Scripture by the man himself.

The obvious conclusion is that Paul was capable of pride and conceit, but the hardships and oppositions he faced and endured as a consequence of preaching the Gospel, served to keep him humble.

I have long thought although I can’t prove it and wouldn’t argue it…that the enemy constantly beat Paul over the head with his sins of persecuting the Church and its members.

[Marathoner]

I have a different view of "thorn in the flesh;" in my case, it's afflictions that the Lord refused to lift from me, reminders that this flesh is perishing and will return to the dust from whence it came one day. These afflictions are organic which is to say, I was born with them, and they won't leave me until my time on earth is done. One is muscular dystrophy and the other is depression. The former is progressing while the latter visits me twice every year. Neither have the mastery over me and in fact, the Spirit taught me what it means to overcome this flesh due to depression.

I consider depression the thorn whereas muscular dystrophy is a reminder of the gift of the Lord that this corruptible flesh will not endure forever. Praise the Lord!

[Live2believe]

9 hours ago, St_Worm2 said:

Hello Live2believe, the problem is, John's words are also clear in 1 John 1-2, yes, where he, the now elder Apostle John, includes not only Christians (at all levels of maturity in the faith) as those who need to continue to confess their sins to God whenever they commit them, but he includes himself, as well (please take note of the words in bold below).

1 John 1
8      If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 
9      If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 
10      If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. 

1 John 2
1      My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 
2      and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 
3      By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 
4      The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 
5      but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 
6      the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. 
7      Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. 
 8      On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining. 
9      The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. 
10      The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 
11      But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 

12      I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake. 
13      I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. 
14      I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one. 
 

So, how do we reconcile the above from the 1 John 1-2 with 1 John 3:9? I think that 1 John 3:9 in the ESV can help.

IOW, a true believer will not continue to make a ~practice~ of sinning (or living a sinful ~lifestyle~) like they used to do before coming to saving faith in Christ (nor will they continue to be impenitent when they sin).

God bless you!

--David!

Hello, David. Thank you for your thoughts. Regarding "we". "We" is used as a general statement that all people sin. With the exception that those who are born again don't sin anymore (1 John 3:9). Let me give an example. During the war in some country, the president may announce in his speech, "We all will defend our country and fight to the last bullet". It is a general statement which does not mean that the president personally will fire a single shot.

Please consider 1 John 3:6: ...whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. If "we" in 1 John 1 are those who are born again, who "have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled", and also who sin (1John 1:8), than it is in direct contradiction to 1 John 3:6,9.

[Live2believe]

9 hours ago, St_Worm2 said:

So, how do we reconcile the above from the 1 John 1-2 with 1 John 3:9? I think that 1 John 3:9 in the ESV can help.

IOW, a true believer will not continue to make a ~practice~ of sinning (or living a sinful ~lifestyle~) like they used to do before coming to saving faith in Christ (nor will they continue to be impenitent when they sin).

God bless you!

--David!

Regarding the scripture (1 John 3:9). "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God 's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning," - it is not a literal translation, but the interpretation of the translator with adding words to "help people understand" what the scripture means. It is not an advisable practice.

 

Young's Literal Translation

every one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, and he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten.

Edited April 28 by Live2believe

[Live2believe]

3 hours ago, enoob57 said:

Whenever you have two seemingly conflicting verses it is God's Word leading to a unity in truth of other direction!
1 John 1:8 (KJV)

[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I believe the answer to this quandary is found in Romans 7 where God tells us the flesh is flesh and is not redeemed as this sets up the war Paul speaks of here

Thank you for your response. 

In Romans chapter 7, Paul described himself BEFORE the Holy Spirit came, for contrast. And in chapter 8 he shows the change the Holy Spirit made. Please compare:

 What a poor man I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

 I thank my God by Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore the same I with my mind serve the law of God, but with my flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7:24,25)

 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who in Christ Jesus, who do not live according to the flesh, but according to the spirit,

because the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8:1,2)

 Also, please consider Romans 6:

Thanks be to God that you, who were formerly slaves to sin, have have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which you were entrusted.

But then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness. (Romans 6:17,18).

 Notice that Paul speaks of himself in chapter 7 as a captive of sin, and in chapters 6 and 8 as having been delivered from the captivity of sin.

[Michael37]

11 hours ago, Alive said:

I have long thought although I can’t prove it and wouldn’t argue it…that the enemy constantly beat Paul over the head with his sins of persecuting the Church and its members.

11 hours ago, Marathoner said:

I have a different view of "thorn in the flesh;" in my case, it's afflictions that the Lord refused to lift from me, reminders that this flesh is perishing and will return to the dust from whence it came one day. These afflictions are organic which is to say, I was born with them, and they won't leave me until my time on earth is done. One is muscular dystrophy and the other is depression. The former is progressing while the latter visits me twice every year. Neither have the mastery over me and in fact, the Spirit taught me what it means to overcome this flesh due to depression.

I consider depression the thorn whereas muscular dystrophy is a reminder of the gift of the Lord that this corruptible flesh will not endure forever. Praise the Lord!

Both those scenarios align with what Paul specified:

I remember a module at Bible College where we had to reflect on the awkwardness that Paul was presented with when among the friends and relatives of those he pursued and had put to death before his conversion. This could indeed have been among the ego-pricking problems that persisted in plaguing him. 

1. Acts 9:26-27: When he came to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples, but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he really was a disciple. But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles.

2. Acts 22:19-20: Paul recounts his past actions, saying, "Lord, they know that I went from one synagogue to another to imprison and beat those who believe in you. And when the blood of your martyr Stephen was shed, I stood there giving my approval and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him."

[Live2believe]

On 4/27/2025 at 5:12 PM, Orion said:

Do you know anyone who is currently alive that is living in sinless perfection?   If so, I would love to meet him or her. 

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (Luke 16:31)