Does the belief in eternal hell mean that man is an eternal spirit?

[John3;16]

I wish that all men were saved, but we must discern what scripture instructs us to follow as fact, there are two resurrections that are recorded in The Book Of Revelations and the setting is the White Throne Judgment, in verse 20:6 it states that "Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has not power" and it further goes on to reveal that those who take part in the first resurrection will reign with Christ during the millennium, in verse 20:12 the Apostle John records that all the dead (those who were not apart of the first resurrection) are judged according to their works which are recorded in books, and another book is also opened and that book is the book of life, which in verse 20:15 it announces that those names not found written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire, and that this is the second death. Those that are judged according to their works are those who do not take part in the first resurrection, they are those who reject Christ, that is why they are judged according to their works.

Revelation|20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and

[penfold]

can I just go back to the original question:

1) Everybody dies apart from the "final" generation before the Lord comes again.

2) Everyone gets a resurrection body (no "nights of the living dead here!)- Jesus was no Ghost and neither will we be.

3) We all get judged. As christians we get crowns to place at Jesus' feet to make him look better, based on our works while we have been "walking with the Lord".

4) If your name is not in the lambs book of life you spend eternity IN TORMENT. You cant die in a resurrection body.

Worse still, you would have thought those people who are going to be damned would be grovelling, but the bible says they will be jeering at God, even then.

[John3;16]

There is not much of a description of death in hell in the bible, except that it is torment and fire, and where the worm continuously feed upon those who are their, I would guess that those who will be cast into the lake of fire will experience what they experience in hell, but after the judgment (Great White Throne) their could be an increase in punishment, who knows? In fact we really don

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

QUOTE(Dr. Luke @ Dec 8 2005, 09:26 AM)

Grace to you,

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Hell is a very definate place that todays Church would rather not talk about. It doesn't fit nicely into the way we have Dressed Jesus up. It does not matter if we paint Him a certain way. His atributes change not. His Righteousness demands Justice.

Before I respond to your other posts, I wanted to quickly address what you say here. The fact is that most of the "church" still teaches hell as a doctrine (even though people in those churches don't necessarily believe it anymore). If there is a church that doesn't talk about hell, it is because they are on the path to light. The attributes of Jesus are compassion, love, mercy, kindness, loving ones enemies, forgiving whether a person repents or not, joy, peace, longsuffering. The doctrine of hell is the opposite of all those things. His righteousness demands justice. That justice was paid for on the cross because he died for the sin (singular) of the world. Paul said that Jesus Christ reconciled the world to himself, NOT imputing their trespasses against them. Surely if they don't have their sins counted against them, then to say "His righteousness demands justice" and make it refer to the teaching of hell just isn't in the bible.

We have had the doctrine of hell in the churches since the 6th century. It was inserted as a dogma of the catholic church and that is when the dark ages began (it isn't a coincidence). Since the doctrine of hell has come into the church, has the church shown the fruits of the Spirit or rather the works of the flesh? Historically, the church is responsible for almost every work of the flesh, primarily because of this teaching of hell. Nothing good has come of it, except that people can see how ridiculous it really is and they search for the truth. Let's see what the teaching of hell has caused in this world - depression, hopelessness, doubt, hatred, variance, strife, murder, torture, rape, robbery, lies, deceit, condemnation, idolatry, abominations, etc. Why do you think that is?

Now, imagine a person teaches God reconciled the world to Himself through Jesus Christ. They don't teach about hell, because it isn't in the bible's original language. They teach God loves all men and will save all men. How do they behave in contrast to the hell teachers? Well, since they believe God loves all men, they have no problem to loving all men either. They can love their enemies, because they know God loves His enemies. It is not an obligation to love their enemies. However, if one believes in hell (and most people will go there), then they realize God does NOT love His enemies, but rather will torture his enemies forever in a fire. It would be very hard to love someone you know God himself does not love. Because it would be futile to waste your time and love on them (since they are most likely going to hell).

I have to say I have been in the eternal torment camp (hell) and the annihilation camp (death) and both fall short of the victory in Christ the bible speaks about. Not only that, when I believed in hell, I felt like God hated me and I was no good and I was going there, because my church gave me "rules" to follow in order to not go there (and I could not do it). It turned me from a loving Christian boy into a hateful, angry, bitter prick. I lived how I wanted because I figured I was going to hell anyway, so I might as well enjoy my way there. I didn't know how much God loved me. I know from experience (as do MILLIONS OF PEOPLE), that the doctrine of hell is contrary to everything our Father in heaven is about. God himself said in Jeremiah that the very concept of hell (even temporarily) had NEVER ENTERED HIS MIND. If burning your own children temporarily was called an abomination and it never entered your mind, then certainly doing it for all eternity would definitly not enter your mind.

I know what I believe is way better than what I did believe. I have the fruits of the Spirit in my life now. I am at peace. I can love others. I can love God again. This sadistic doctrine of hell does NOTHING for anyone, except bring them into more religious hypocrisy and bondage. Jesus said the truth would set us free. Just look at the fruit. The doctrine of hell creates bad people, the doctrine of reconciliation creates new creatures who love all men. Which would Jesus teach?

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Religious Brad,

I wanted to adress the errors in just your first paragraph.

QUOTE

The "Devil" represents something

Jas 2:19

You believe that there is one God; you do well: the demons also believe, and tremble.

Mt 8:29

And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with you, Jesus, you Son of God? have you come here to torment us before the time?

1Pe 5:8

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Eph 6:12

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Your Doctrine is in deep error and may cause problems for you. As you are unprepared to defend yourself against the devil and his wiles.

The devil doesn't just represent something. he is very real.

The first problem is you seem to be taking "1 verse charlies" and inserting your own interpretation into the text. James does indeed say "devils" or "demons", but remember, "evil spirits" came from God, not some "devil" - see 1st Samuel 16:14.

As far as Matthew 8:29, the evil spirit said Jesus was there to afflict them "before the time". What time? Well, Hebrews 2:14 says Jesus came to destroy him who had power over death, that is the devil. Paul said in Romans 16:20 that Satan would be shortly crushed under their feet. It obviously was a time that would happen in the lifetime of those Paul spoke to.

As far as 1st Peter 5:8, that just proves my belief that satan was "cast down" and deceiving the nations like Revelation 20 says. The term "devil", "satan", "serpent" and "dragon" was used describing human beings, not some super angel (as our traditions have made satan to be). The word "satan" is not a name, it is a word that was left untranslated. It should have been consistently translated as "adversary". It usually referred to people, and even God himself (see Numbers 22:22 and 1st Chronicles 21:1/2nd Samuel 24:1). Jesus called other people "serpents" and a "devil" and "satan". Who tempted Jesus in the wilderness? Was it some super fallen angel or was it a group of human beings? Did not the pharisees and sadducees go into the wilderness to John? Would it be impossible to believe that the "devil" who tempted Jesus was the pharisees? Did not Jesus say the pharisees tempted him and didn't they say "if thou be the son of God"?

And lastly, Ephesians 6:12 does say they should prepare for a battle against "the devil". However, look at the context - against principalities (which means "chief" in greek - an authority), and against rulers of "this age". What age was being ruled at that time? Jesus only mentioned 2 of them. "This age and the age to come". What age was Jesus living in? The MOSAIC age of the old covenant. What was the age to come? The new covenant age! So, the context of Ephesians 6:12-15 is NOT about fighting some supernatural fallen angel, but against fighting the ever vanishing old covenant rulers. Not only that, it says to the EPHESIANS, they need to be able to stand in the "evil day". I'm not a rocket scientist, but that either means the "evil day" has not happened yet and there are 2000 year old Ephesians living in the world OR it means the "evil day" that was "this age" was in THEIR lifetime. This also proves my point that "satan" and "demons" would be destroyed in their lifetime. I don't need to "prepare" myself against any "devil" because the "Devil" is DESTROYED. Unless Jesus failed?

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What does death look like?

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It looks like everything that doesn't look like Jesus. It looks like the throne upon which man has placed himself and sits and reigns in his own heart.

Could you show me a scripture that says that? Jesus isn't separate from "Death" in regards to us. For example, Paul said "I die daily". Yet, Paul was in Christ totally.

QUOTE

The devil has been in rebellion against Gods Throne for some time. he desires Gods Throne for his own. he tricked man into believing a lie. That man himself could be like God the Most High. Thus thrusting all of humanity into this rebellion. This rebellion is defeated and ultimately will be crushed. God will not share His Glory with any other. Thus if you are striving to enter into heaven by any means other than Jesus Christ and His atoning Blood? You will not enter and be cast out with those in the rebellion. Simply because you wear the wrong garment. You do not wear the Garment of Righteousness that is seamless in Christ. You wear the garment of an averse king who desires his own Throne.

I don't know if you are saying I personally am not wearing a garment of righteousness in Christ or you are talking about people in general. If you mean me, how can you make a judgment call with someone you don't even know? I don't wear a garment of anyone who desires my own throne. I base my righteousness on Jesus Christ, not myself. There is NO SCRIPTURE that says "the devil has been in rebellion against God's throne for some time". You are addressing several things that have nothing to do with each other. It appears you believe God had no control over this "rebellion" as you call it. But the bible says God does as He pleases and He has planned all this from the very beginning. Nobody will go to heaven without Christ and the bible says EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess Christ is Lord. So, all men will eventually go through Christ. As far as the "garment" idea, that had to do with the destruction of Jerusalem (see Matthew 22). If a person was wearing the wrong garment, it was because they didn't heed the call of the wedding properly. Being "cast into outer darkness" was referring to being killed and cast into gehenna (the valley of hinnom where garbage was burning). In other words, those who didn't heed the warning of Jesus to be ready for the wedding did NOT escape Jerusalem like he said and they were BOUND hand and feet and thrown into the valley of hinnom just like the parable says.

What does death look like? It looks like you and me minus Jesus Christ.

Peace,

Dave

We are all on our own path in Christ, but one thing must remain contant - love for one another. We may even disagree vehemently, but if we have not love, it is worthless.

Godbless

Religious Brad,

I wasn't speaking in terms of you directly not having the right clothing on but in general of anyone who will be cast out into outer darkness. For wearing a suit of fig leaves that they have indeed sewn for themselves. It won't hide anything. They will still simply be naked and ashamed.

There is NO SCRIPTURE that says "the devil has been in rebellion against God's throne for some time".

Rebellion against God in which man has joined by his own lustful desire;

Isa

Edited December 12, 2005 by Dr. Luke