Will the wicked be tormented for eternity or annihilated?

[Alive]

6 minutes ago, farouk said:

How about Mark 9.44: "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

A metaphor--did the Lord advocate cutting off your foot or plucking out your eye--knowing full well that all men sin--even  His own.

[Marathoner]

Having participated in discussions about this topic in the past, my own understanding hasn't changed. I'm on my phone and otherwise occupied, but I can offer a concise summary of that understanding in this post. Context is critical.

The Lord has extended mercy and the permission to repent only to man; nowhere in the scriptural record are the angels permitted the same mercy. Consider Cain, the slayer of his brother, and how the Lord granted his petition even after Cain had lied to Him. The Lord was merciful to Adam and his wife even after they had sinned. 

The Lord limited the days of man after the flood, which can be seen as yet another example of His mercy toward us. Seeing as how scripture testifies of the mercy of the Lord even toward wicked men, scriptural support of the second death being the end for wicked men exists as well.

Only Satan, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented forever and ever in the lake of fire. That sums up my understanding of the matter. 

[Alive]

Jesus references Hell ( improperly translated) which is Gehenna a reference to the Valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem to the south, where babies were sacrificed and thrown in the worship of 'molech'. King Josiah put a stop to this practice (2 Kings's 23:10). It came to be the place where human excrement and rubbish and animal carcasses were disposed of and burned. The fires there burned continually. It was used symbolically of the place of punishment. Jesus of course was aware of how it was viewed by the people He was speaking to. It was a dump where dead things ended up.

Was Jesus teaching Ancient Greek poetry and beliefs on death? No! Of course not. He was referencing something everyone knew, as a symbolism.

He was not revealing anything substantial about the reality of life after death imagined by the Hellenized Jews.

Isaiah references it here.

Is. 66:24 (ESVS)   “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”.

In the next age--even death itself will die.

[farouk]

3 hours ago, Alive said:

A metaphor--did the Lord advocate cutting off your foot or plucking out your eye--knowing full well that all men sin--even  His own.

Carl Henry once asked Karl Barth if the Resurrection was literal; and Barth proceeded to bloviate awkwardly; there comes a point when what is literal cannot be explained away as metaphor.

[FreeGrace]

On 6/16/2025 at 12:57 PM, Hinds Feet said:

Recently I've come to some interesting discussion concerning whether or not a lost person will suffer eternally in the Lake of Fire, or if they will be annihilated in the Lake of Fire. I always kept this matter open in my thoughts, leaning toward eternal torment. However after hearing more discussion, I starting to lean toward annihilation for the lost. The key Scripture of text for support of this, can be found in Revelation 14:9-11, then comparing it to Revelation 20:10. If you read these verses, you will notice a small difference between what it says about the punishment of those who take the mark of the beast, and the punishment of the devil and his accomplices. For one, it is said the "smoke" of their torment rises forever and ever. For the other it says they themselves will be tormented forever and ever.

 

Now, Jesus said something interesting concerning having the fear of Yahweh. He told us not to fear those who can kill the body but not the soul, but to fear the One who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. (Which I believe is a reference to the Lake of Fire) It's this saying from Jesus that always kept me open to the idea of annihilation, due to His use of the words "kill" and "destroy". There is the sensation of being completely wiped out. Its hard to connect suffering eternally with being destroyed. As for the devil, it is definitely implied he will be tormented forever from Revelation 20:10. And this actually goes well with another saying of Jesus, saying the eternal fire was prepared for the devil and his angels. This placed was actually designed for the devil and all the fallen angels with him. It was never intended for humans. However those who join in the rebellion of the devil, they will go with him into this place. With it not being specifically designed for them, perhaps they will burn up completely.

You are correct that Rev 20:10 is clear that the beast, FP and Satan will be tormented for ever.  But to say the LOF was never intended for humans is incorrect, since God knows everything.  That includes the casting of all unbelievers into the LOF.  

On 6/16/2025 at 12:57 PM, Hinds Feet said:

With all that said, what about the anti-christ and the false prophet? Revelation 20:10 states they will be tormented forever and ever right along with the devil. So wouldn't that oppose to the idea of annihilation?

Exactly!

On 6/16/2025 at 12:57 PM, Hinds Feet said:

The interesting thing about the anti-christ and the false prophet, it is possible these two might not be completely human. In Genesis 6, we are introduced to a race of people called the Nephilim. It's possible the anti-christ and the false prophet may be Nephilim, sons of a human mother and a fallen angel. The anti-christ may indeed be the literal son of the devil himself. (Counteracting Jesus being the Son of God) If this is the case, them being part fallen angel, they will continue to exist in the Lake of Fire. So those are some thoughts I wanted to share with everyone. Let me know your thoughts.

Matt 25:46 clears up the matter well.  "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. "

The words "eternal punishment" means exactly what it says.  For punishment to be eternal means it is consciously experienced for ever, which perfectly fits Rev 20:10 regarding the beast, FP and Satan.

Those who espouse annihilation have the problem of actually siding with atheists, who claim there is no God.  They believe that at physical death, everything ends.  No consciousness any more.  How can there be eternal punishment if that were true?

So, if souls perish in the LOF, there couldn't be eternal punishment.  And the Bible says there will be.

[enoob57]

9 hours ago, Hinds Feet said:

I also think about Jesus sayings concerning the three cities He spoke woe over, that it would be more bearable for the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than it will be for them.

As this is speaking to levels of severity to punishment but not duration of...

9 hours ago, Hinds Feet said:

Jesus also said for the one who knew his master's will yet didn't do it, would receive many blows, versus the one who didn't know the will of the master but did things deserving of punishment.  Now, many and few blows indicates a certain number. 

This is indicating the sentencing out of law I tend to think this is millennial kingdom rule of The Lord... 

Psalms 2:6 (KJV)

[6] Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

[7] I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

[8] Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

[9] Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

[10] Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

9 hours ago, Hinds Feet said:

Implying once that number is reached, there will be no more blows or whippings.

No where that I am aware of in Scripture does it speak of beatings in hell... so as that being the case I apply above MK thinking above to this understanding

 

9 hours ago, Hinds Feet said:

This could indicate annihilation, where some will last longer in the fire than others.

I just don't see how you made this jump to any of the above passages to durations of time in punishment of hell... 

[NeutralZone]

10 hours ago, Marathoner said:

The Lord has extended mercy and the permission to repent only to man; nowhere in the scriptural record are the angels permitted the same mercy. Consider Cain, the slayer of his brother, and how the Lord granted his petition even after Cain had lied to Him. The Lord was merciful to Adam and his wife even after they had sinned. 

You were doing good, Marathoner, until you got to Adam and his wife, Eve.  Adam and Eve were perfect when they chose to rebel against the Almighty God; therefore, they committed deliverate sin.  Jesus' sacrificial death doesn't cover them.  His death only covers Adam's offspring (all humanity) because they were born into sin. 

 

Likewise, there is no forgiveness for sinful humans who commit deliberate sin (meaning it's premeditated, just as Adam and Eve's sin was premeditated).

"For if we deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins," (Hebrews 10:26)

Similarly, there is no forgiveness for sinning against Almighty God's holy spirit.

"28.  Truly I say to you that all things will be forgiven the sons of men, no matter what sins they commit and what blasphemies they speak.  29.  But whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit has no forgiveness forever but is guilty of everlasting sin.”

 

NeutralZone

[Marathoner]

3 hours ago, NeutralZone said:

Adam and Eve were perfect when they chose to rebel against the Almighty God; therefore, they committed deliverate sin.  Jesus' sacrificial death doesn't cover them. 

I'm not following you here. Can you elaborate and share relevant scripture? Much appreciated, my friend. 

Too keep matters focused on the topic, the mercy of the Lord toward the wicked is not necessarily forgiveness. The Lord is specifically merciful toward man which is the context of why I don't agree with eternal, conscious punishment of men and women. The lake of fire is the second death for man.b

Satan, on the other hand, will be punished eternally so the lake of fire is not the second death for our accuser. 

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, NeutralZone said:

You were doing good, Marathoner, until you got to Adam and his wife, Eve.  Adam and Eve were perfect when they chose to rebel against the Almighty God; therefore, they committed deliverate sin.  Jesus' sacrificial death doesn't cover them.  His death only covers Adam's offspring (all humanity) because they were born into sin.

The Bible says plainly and repeatedly that Jesus died for everyone.  Adam is one of those "everyones".  

10 hours ago, NeutralZone said:

Likewise, there is no forgiveness for sinful humans who commit deliberate sin (meaning it's premeditated, just as Adam and Eve's sin was premeditated).

"For if we deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins," (Hebrews 10:26)

Please read v.18 before reading v.26.  

v.18 - And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.  The specific context for v.18 is v.14 - For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Jesus is that "one sacrifice", on behalf of everyone.  It is clear from the account of Adam that he believed the gospel promise , as given in Gen 3:15.

So, because of Jesus' "once for all" sacrifice that was made for everyone, v.18 tells us that sin sacrifices are "no longer necessary".  Jesus' sacrifice was perfect and covers everyone.

So, v.26 tells that deliberate sin results in God's discipline toward His children (believers).  

v.27 - but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.  

And don't forget v.30 - For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”  Pretty clear.

10 hours ago, NeutralZone said:

Similarly, there is no forgiveness for sinning against Almighty God's holy spirit.

"28.  Truly I say to you that all things will be forgiven the sons of men, no matter what sins they commit and what blasphemies they speak.  29.  But whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit has no forgiveness forever but is guilty of everlasting sin.”

The context for this was about Jews who SAW the miracles of Jesus, which were prophesied in the OT, and yet STILL rejected Him as their Messiah.  They were so hard hearted, they would never believe in Him, in spite of His clear miracles, which proved who He was.

Jesus died for the sins of everyone.  No one will be cast into the LOF because of their sins.  They will be cast into the LOF for refusing the free gift of eternal life, which is received on the basis of faith or belief in Jesus as the Messiah.

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, Marathoner said:

I'm not following you here. Can you elaborate and share relevant scripture? Much appreciated, my friend. 

Too keep matters focused on the topic, the mercy of the Lord toward the wicked is not necessarily forgiveness. The Lord is specifically merciful toward man which is the context of why I don't agree with eternal, conscious punishment of men and women. The lake of fire is the second death for man.

Please elaborate on Matt 25:46 - Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. ”

This refers to unbelievers.  Thanks.

9 hours ago, Marathoner said:

Satan, on the other hand, will be punished eternally so the lake of fire is not the second death for our accuser. 

Along with the beast and false prophet, who will be cast into the LOF 1,000 years before satan will, and when satan is cast into the LOF, they will STILL BE THERE, as Rev 20:10 says.

The term "second death" as applied to the lake of fire is interesting.  There are 4 verses that tell us that both believers and unbelievers will be resurrected:  Dan 12:2, Matt 25:41, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15.  However, it should be obvious that the unbelievers will not receive a glorified resurrection body, which all believers will receive, one just like Jesus' body.

So, when the unbeliever receives his sentence at the GWT, and cast into the LOF, as Rev 20:14 says, it will be their resurrected but still mortal bodies that will die again.  Their souls, however, will experience "eternal punishment", just as Matt 25:46 says.  That is ECT.