Will the wicked be tormented for eternity or annihilated?

[NeutralZone]

18 hours ago, Marathoner said:

I'm not following you here. Can you elaborate and share relevant scripture? Much appreciated, my friend. 

Too keep matters focused on the topic, the mercy of the Lord toward the wicked is not necessarily forgiveness. The Lord is specifically merciful toward man which is the context of why I don't agree with eternal, conscious punishment of men and women. The lake of fire is the second death for man.

Satan, on the other hand, will be punished eternally so the lake of fire is not the second death for our accuser. 

I don't know how much more specific you want me to get, Marathoner.  I quoted the scripture at Hebrew 10:26 which says there is no forgiveness for deliberate sin. 

I didn't say anything about eternal, conscious punishment. Scripture doesn't support the teaching of literal hellfire torment.  The Bible makes it clear that there are two options for humanity, as follows:

 

Romans 6:23

"For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord."

 

So it's either annihilation or eternal life.  In order to literally burn wicked people in fire for eternity, it would require resurrecting them to everlasting life.  That's not Romans 6:23 says.  It says death or everlasting life, which are polar opposites. 

[NeutralZone]

10 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The Bible says plainly and repeatedly that Jesus died for everyone.  Adam is one of those "everyones".  

Scripture says there is no forgiveness for deliberate sin, FreeGrace.  Adam and Eve committed deliberate sin because they were perfect and can't use imperfection as an excuse for their rebellion.  Below is evidence from the Bible that their actions were deliberate.

Young's Literal Translation -- Genesis chapter 2 

"9. and Jehovah God causeth to sprout from the ground every tree desirable for appearance, and good for food, and the tree of life in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil."

As you can see from verse 9, not only are we dealing with two people with sound minds and perfect physical health, but they had "every tree desirable" from which to eat (except for the forbidden tree of course.)  So we can see that Adam and Eve lacked for nothing.  Are you following me on this?  So obviously they didn't take from the forbidden tree because they were hungry.  What was their motive?  Let's see how the Bible answers that last question, as noted below.  I am going to focus on Eve with blue color and focus on the Devil/Satan/the Serpent in maroon color:

Peshitta Holy Bible Translated -- Genesis Chapter 3

"1.   And the Serpent was craftier than every animal of the wilderness that LORD JEHOVAH God had made, and the Serpent said to the Woman, “Has God truly said that you will not eat from all the trees of Paradise”? 2.  And the woman said to the Serpent, “From the fruit of all of the trees that are in Paradise we shall eat: 3.  And from the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of Paradise God said, “You shall not eat from it and you shall not touch it, lest you shall die.’ 4.  And the Serpent said to the Woman, “You shall not really die:  5.  Because God knew that in the day that you eat from it, your eyes are opened and you are like God, knowing the good and the evil.” 6.  And the woman saw that it was a tree good to eat, and was desirable to the eyes, and a tree desirable to gaze at, and she took from its fruit and ate, and she gave also to her husband with her and he ate."

Notice the motivation at verse 6.  Notice also in verse 6 that it says Eve stood there gazing at the tree.  The act of gazing before performing the act of disobedience, in and of itself, indicates deliberation.

 

Looking forward to continuing our discussion, FreeGrace.

[Hinds Feet]

On 6/17/2025 at 4:06 PM, FreeGrace said:

You are correct that Rev 20:10 is clear that the beast, FP and Satan will be tormented for ever.  But to say the LOF was never intended for humans is incorrect, since God knows everything.  That includes the casting of all unbelievers into the LOF.  

Exactly!

Matt 25:46 clears up the matter well.  "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. "

The words "eternal punishment" means exactly what it says.  For punishment to be eternal means it is consciously experienced for ever, which perfectly fits Rev 20:10 regarding the beast, FP and Satan.

Those who espouse annihilation have the problem of actually siding with atheists, who claim there is no God.  They believe that at physical death, everything ends.  No consciousness any more.  How can there be eternal punishment if that were true?

So, if souls perish in the LOF, there couldn't be eternal punishment.  And the Bible says there will be.

I hear you on this.  But just like the words "eternal punishment" indicates someone suffering forever, Jesus' saying God destroying body and soul in Gehenna also indicates complete eradication.  Which one would be correct?  And while the devil is specifically mentioned in Revelation as going to be tormented forever and ever, those who worship the beast, it is said the "smoke" of their torment will rise forever and ever.  What is this smoke that is going to rise forever and ever?  Why not just say they will be tormented forever and ever like it says about the devil?  These are things we must consider.  I would agree with others who say the best answer is probably to say it is not definitive, eternal torment vs annihilation.

 

23 hours ago, enoob57 said:

As this is speaking to levels of severity to punishment but not duration of...

This is indicating the sentencing out of law I tend to think this is millennial kingdom rule of The Lord... 

Psalms 2:6 (KJV)

[6] Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

[7] I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

[8] Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

[9] Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

[10] Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

No where that I am aware of in Scripture does it speak of beatings in hell... so as that being the case I apply above MK thinking above to this understanding

 

I just don't see how you made this jump to any of the above passages to durations of time in punishment of hell... 

 

I say these things because, while it is possible for there to be differing levels of severity in punishment within an eternal torment perspective, I can't imagine any eternal sentence as being bearable.  I might say the only bearable punishment that can be had, is one where you are not conscious to experience it.  Think about the nuclear bombs that were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  I can't imagine the horror the survivors of those two bombs had experienced.  For some, their torment was quick, and for others, they lived for many more years until they died from cancer and other such results.  Those who died from the radiation years later, may be considered the unlucky ones.  So Jesus' words could be understood in this sense because again, it doesn't make much sense for there to be a bearable form of eternal torment.

As for the blows/whippings, I take this to be metaphorical or representative of the actual punishment the unrighteous will face in the Lake of Fire.  When it comes to whippings/beatings, they don't last forever.  And Jesus' use of many and few blows, suggests there is a limit.  I don't believe this will be a reference to the 1000 year reign specifically.  In Jesus' parable of the wicked servant, the master assigns the servant with the hypocrites, and casts him on the outside where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.  Most consider this place to be the Lake of Fire.  (Of course I'm drawing from the parables Jesus gave in Matthew 24 and Luke 12)  If this is the place where the wicked servant receives his metaphorically blows/whippings, once the number is reached, it indicates there will be no more afterward.  Because we know he won't be let out or accepted into the kingdom, the only other option that would satisfy limited blows, is to say that person would be annihilated.

[FreeGrace]

23 hours ago, enoob57 said:

Hinds Feet said:

I also think about Jesus sayings concerning the three cities He spoke woe over, that it would be more bearable for the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than it will be for them.

As this is speaking to levels of severity to punishment but not duration of...

The duration of punishment is clearly stated in Matt 25:46 - “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. ”

[FreeGrace]

16 minutes ago, NeutralZone said:

FreeGrace said:

The Bible says plainly and repeatedly that Jesus died for everyone.  Adam is one of those "everyones".  

Scripture says there is no forgiveness for deliberate sin, FreeGrace.

v.26 says there is no "more sacrifice for sin".  "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"

v.18 tells us that by Jesus' "once for all" sacrifice, there is no need for further sacrifice.

16 minutes ago, NeutralZone said:

Adam and Eve committed deliberate sin because they were perfect and can't use imperfection as an excuse for their rebellion.  Below is evidence from the Bible that their actions were deliberate.

Unless one is quite unfamiliar with Scripture, people know right from wrong.  Paul explained in Rom 2:14,15 that even Gentiles have a conscience.  God given.

16 minutes ago, NeutralZone said:

Young's Literal Translation -- Genesis chapter 2 

"9. and Jehovah God causeth to sprout from the ground every tree desirable for appearance, and good for food, and the tree of life in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil."

As you can see from verse 9, not only are we dealing with two people with sound minds and perfect physical health, but they had "every tree desirable" from which to eat (except for the forbidden tree of course.)  So we can see that Adam and Eve lacked for nothing.  Are you following me on this?  So obviously they didn't take from the forbidden tree because they were hungry.  What was their motive?  Let's see how the Bible answers that last question, as noted below.  I am going to focus on Eve with blue color and focus on the Devil/Satan/the Serpent in maroon color:

Peshitta Holy Bible Translated -- Genesis Chapter 3

"1.   And the Serpent was craftier than every animal of the wilderness that LORD JEHOVAH God had made, and the Serpent said to the Woman, “Has God truly said that you will not eat from all the trees of Paradise”? 2.  And the woman said to the Serpent, “From the fruit of all of the trees that are in Paradise we shall eat: 3.  And from the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of Paradise God said, “You shall not eat from it and you shall not touch it, lest you shall die.’ 4.  And the Serpent said to the Woman, “You shall not really die:  5.  Because God knew that in the day that you eat from it, your eyes are opened and you are like God, knowing the good and the evil.” 6.  And the woman saw that it was a tree good to eat, and was desirable to the eyes, and a tree desirable to gaze at, and she took from its fruit and ate, and she gave also to her husband with her and he ate."

Notice the motivation at verse 6.  Notice also in verse 6 that it says Eve stood there gazing at the tree.  The act of gazing before performing the act of disobedience, in and of itself, indicates deliberation.

I love your color coding.  I use it as well to clarify verses.  

16 minutes ago, NeutralZone said:

Looking forward to continuing our discussion, FreeGrace.

Me too!

[FreeGrace]

15 minutes ago, Hinds Feet said:

I hear you on this.  But just like the words "eternal punishment" indicates someone suffering forever, Jesus' saying God destroying body and soul in Gehenna also indicates complete eradication.  Which one would be correct?

To be correct, the Bible never says that God will destroy both body and soul.  It does say that God is able to.  A big difference.  And Matt 25:46 is clear enough.  For punishment to be "eternal" means one must be conscious in order to experience the punishment.

If souls are going to cease to exist, means they will no longer suffer anything.  That is in contradiction to Matt 25:46.

15 minutes ago, Hinds Feet said:

  And while the devil is specifically mentioned in Revelation as going to be tormented forever and ever, those who worship the beast, it is said the "smoke" of their torment will rise forever and ever.  What is this smoke that is going to rise forever and ever?  Why not just say they will be tormented forever and ever like it says about the devil?

The Bible already has said it, in Matt 25:46 by "eternal punishment".  That is where the smoke comes from.  

15 minutes ago, Hinds Feet said:

  These are things we must consider.  I would agree with others who say the best answer is probably to say it is not definitive, eternal torment vs annihilation.

I will stick with Matt 25:46 and what "eternal punishment" clearly means.  :)

15 minutes ago, Hinds Feet said:

I say these things because, while it is possible for there to be differing levels of severity in punishment within an eternal torment perspective, I can't imagine any eternal sentence as being bearable.

I wouldn't bet truth on what I can't imagine.  The entirety of eternity is something that no one can accurately imagine.  

15 minutes ago, Hinds Feet said:

  I might say the only bearable punishment that can be had, is one where you are not conscious to experience it.

The issue is really "not existing" rather than simply "not conscious".  There are many ways people can be tormented, just physically.  Think of mental torment, like regretting some or most of the choices you made while on earth, etc.

15 minutes ago, Hinds Feet said:

  Think about the nuclear bombs that were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  I can't imagine the horror the survivors of those two bombs had experienced.  For some, their torment was quick, and for others, they lived for many more years until they died from cancer and other such results.

I don't see the relevance of this to eternal punishment.  Sure, some where blown to bits immediately and others died slowly from radiation poisoning.  That doesn't relate to the soul in the LOF.

15 minutes ago, Hinds Feet said:

  Those who died from the radiation years later, may be considered the unlucky ones.

That's only if one thinks physically.  Most of the Japanese people were Buddhists who went to Hades when they died.  Where there was more torment, per Luke 16.

15 minutes ago, Hinds Feet said:

  So Jesus' words could be understood in this sense because again, it doesn't make much sense for there to be a bearable form of eternal torment.

Sure there is.  Levels of torment.  One can be tormented somewhat or more.  Jesus even said in plain words that it will be more bearable for some than others.

Matt 10:15, 11:22, 24.

Just one verse is enough for me to believe a statement.  3 verses are 2 more than I need to be convinced.

15 minutes ago, Hinds Feet said:

As for the blows/whippings, I take this to be metaphorical or representative of the actual punishment the unrighteous will face in the Lake of Fire.  When it comes to whippings/beatings, they don't last forever.

Eternal punishment WILL last forever, or words don't mean things.

15 minutes ago, Hinds Feet said:

  And Jesus' use of many and few blows, suggests there is a limit.

Matt 25:46 proves that there is no time limit.  The punishment will last forever.

15 minutes ago, Hinds Feet said:

 

 

[NeutralZone]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

v.26 says there is no "more sacrifice for sin".  "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"

Exactly.

 

  

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

v.18 tells us that by Jesus' "once for all" sacrifice, there is no need for further sacrifice.

"Once for all" only applies to Adam's offspring (those born with Adam's inherited sin).  And even in their case, there is are no more sacrifice for sin if it's deliberate/premeditated, as stated at Hebrews 10:26.

 

 International Version -- Hebrews 10:26

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,"
 

[NeutralZone]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Unless one is quite unfamiliar with Scripture, people know right from wrong.  Paul explained in Rom 2:14,15 that even Gentiles have a conscience.  God given.

Agreed.  All humans are endowed with a conscience regardless of whether or not they are Christians and have access to the Bible.  

 

Years ago when I took a class in college, one of the points brought out was that even those that have never heard about the Abrahamic God refrain from certain behaviors such as incest.  As a rule, they frown on behaviors such as theft, murder, etc. 

[missmuffet]

Is annihilation biblical? Take a look at the website below. 

 

https://www.gotquestions.org/annihilationism.html

[JohnD]

Both. Their bodies will be destroyed by the fire and their spirits will suffer forever.