Will the wicked be tormented for eternity or annihilated?

[BibleStudent100]

On 6/17/2025 at 7:45 AM, Alive said:

The fires there burned continually. It was used symbolically of the place of punishment. Jesus of course was aware of how it was viewed by the people He was speaking to. It was a dump where dead things ended up.

Yes, this is my understanding as well, that death would be no more, just like Gehenna was a common metaphor for "non-existence" as it was the city dump that was constantly on fire (wow--now that I think about it, I wonder how toxic it was to live around Jerusalem with all that smoke!)

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, NeutralZone said:

It doesn't have to include the word forgiveness, FreeGrace.  The statement at Hebrews 10:26 that "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins" speaks for itself.

Yes, it does.  And the subject is SACRIFICE, not forgiveness.  They are different words and different concepts.

10 hours ago, NeutralZone said:

  It was the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ that makes forgiveness of sins 

Sure.  Makes POSSIBLE.  His death doesn't forgive or save anyone.

10 hours ago, NeutralZone said:

  So if there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, the person's sin has not been forgiven.   Below are three different Bible translations of the same verse.  

Good News Translation -- Hebrews 10:26

"For there is no longer any sacrifice that will take away sins if we purposely go on sinning after the truth has been made known to us."

New Living Translation  -- Hebrews 10:26
"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins."

NET Bible -- Hebrews 10:26
"For if we deliberately keep on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins is left for us,"

None of these other translations help you.  The issue is no sacrifice for sins, NOT "no forgiveness for sins".

You do not have the authority to change the meaning of words just to suit yourself.

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, NeutralZone said:

  As soon as you can talk your way around Genesis 3:22 thorough 24, which I quoted for you at least twice, you will have made a point.  Below are those verses again.

I don't have to talk my way around anything.  I gave you many verses that say plainly that Christ died for all, everyone.  Didn't you read the verses you asked for?

So your challenge now is to prove that Adam and Eve weren't members of the human race.  You know, the RACE they started.  ;)

10 hours ago, NeutralZone said:

You've been debunked by scripture at Genesis 3:22-24.

Your opinions are funny.

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, NeutralZone said:

Different Bible translations will sometimes use words that are not exactly on point, that's why I had to see the quotations you are using in support of your claim that Jesus' sacrificial death covers every sort of sin known to man.  Sure enough, FreeGrace, nothing that you colored in red within your quotations says anything in support of that claim.

OK, I see then that you are blind.  Every verse says He died for everyone.  But you are free to believe your own opinions.

I will believe what the Bible says.

[Hinds Feet]

13 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Neither would I.  In fact, Jesus' resurrection is irrelevant to eternal punishment.  They are not related.

One I didn't ask.

You are free to believe whatever you want.  I have full trust in the fact that Jesus PAID IN FULL the sin debt of humanity, proven by what He said, just before He dismissed His spirit and went to Hades, to preach to spirits in prison.

The Bible clearly indicates that time is no problem for God.

2 Peter 3:8 - But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

No, He was never like Adam.  Where do think that is found in Scripture?

No need to get all wrapped up in what we cannot actually understand.

Jesus SAID He did.  So I believe that.  And I don't care how He did it.  He is God, and, as you say, "God can do anything if He wanted to".  I'll stop there.

Of course we don't know how God accomplishes all the things He accomplishes.  But His Word tells us what He does, so we should believe it.

The punishment for not having received the free gift of eternal life is definitely eternal.  I think we are talking about different things.  The debt was never given a time frame.  The punishment WAS.

Except I forgive you that debt.  So you are debt free!!

Let's not take parables and try to turn them into literal reality.  Jesus didn't provide an explanation of that parable, unlike the parable of the soils.

I have to wonder why what Jesus said isn't enough to believe that He did.  He said "tetelestai" which means PAID IN FULL in the Koine Greek, and was used that way in the ancient world.  Jesus said it, so I believe it.

He did pay the debt.  He actually SAID so.

The obvious point of that parable was because God has forgiven US our sin debt, we SHOULD BE forgiving of others.

They will be punished eternally, according to matt 25:46.  

Now you're speculating.

Those who live with God for eternity will not even think about those who were cast into the LOF.  And if those souls cease to exist finally, that wouldn't affect them anyway.

That is the logical end point of physical death for them.

Why do you think that?  And why say "IF IF IF the righteous go on to live forever"??

Doesn't eternal life have any meaning to you?

There is nothing about punishment if the one being punished isn't around.  I really can't imagine why anyone would think punishment can be experienced by one who no longer exists.

I hear you and have enjoyed this conversation.  You asked where in Scripture does it say Jesus was like Adam?  Well, Paul called Jesus "The Last Adam" in 1 Corinthians 15:45.  Remember, it was through Adam's disobedience that sin entered the world.  So to it be through Jesus' obedience that we have eternal life.  If Adam would have been obedient to God's voice, sin and death would have never entered the world.  So the Son of God became a man, He became like Adam, to accomplish this obedience.

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, Hinds Feet said:

I hear you and have enjoyed this conversation.  You asked where in Scripture does it say Jesus was like Adam?

That isn't the relevant question.  But the answer is that Jesus was fully human, just like Adam.  We know from Rom 5 that Paul contrasted Jesus and Adam,  but so what?  How does that support the claim that Adam's sin wasn't forgivable?

4 hours ago, Hinds Feet said:

  Well, Paul called Jesus "The Last Adam" in 1 Corinthians 15:45.  Remember, it was through Adam's disobedience that sin entered the world.  So to it be through Jesus' obedience that we have eternal life.  If Adam would have been obedient to God's voice, sin and death would have never entered the world.  So the Son of God became a man, He became like Adam, to accomplish this obedience.

The "what if's..." kind of comments are not helpful.  Let's just stick with the "what IS..." statements.  Facts.

It is your claim about Adam that you haven't shown from Scripture.  Are you going to?

[Hinds Feet]

19 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

That isn't the relevant question.  But the answer is that Jesus was fully human, just like Adam.  We know from Rom 5 that Paul contrasted Jesus and Adam,  but so what?  How does that support the claim that Adam's sin wasn't forgivable?

The "what if's..." kind of comments are not helpful.  Let's just stick with the "what IS..." statements.  Facts.

It is your claim about Adam that you haven't shown from Scripture.  Are you going to?

I never said Adam's sin wasn't forgivable.  Of course I notice you were having a conversation with another poster.  So that thinking might have come from him/her.  As for me, I believe Jesus was fully like Adam was, particularly in the sense of not having the sinful nature.  Adam was created without that nature. (Unlike us who are born into it.)  Jesus wasn't born with the sinful nature.  So this is what I'm referring to.

[Marathoner]

This brings the discussion back into focus regarding the topic at hand.

Forgiveness is not an issue here but rather, the mercy of the Lord toward man --- specifically, wicked and even unrepentant men and women. Scripture demonstrates that the Lord regards man differently than He does the angels; man is afforded repentance and mercy (proving his special status) but the same is not true of those angels who left their first estate. There is no mercy nor opportunity to repent for them. 

The condemned of man are still afforded mercy by the Lord in that they shall not live eternally. Eternal torment is reserved for those who do not die. Man, on the other hand, dies at least once. 

This is the contextual basis of my view regarding the disposition of the dead (man alone) who will be cast into the lake of fire. It is the second death... immutable and final and thus, eternal. The second death is not death if the condemned are living eternally. 

[DeighAnn]

On 6/16/2025 at 9:57 AM, Hinds Feet said:

Recently I've come to some interesting discussion concerning whether or not a lost person will suffer eternally in the Lake of Fire, or if they will be annihilated in the Lake of Fire. I always kept this matter open in my thoughts, leaning toward eternal torment. However after hearing more discussion, I starting to lean toward annihilation for the lost. The key Scripture of text for support of this, can be found in Revelation 14:9-11, then comparing it to Revelation 20:10. If you read these verses, you will notice a small difference between what it says about the punishment of those who take the mark of the beast, and the punishment of the devil and his accomplices. For one, it is said the "smoke" of their torment rises forever and ever. For the other it says they themselves will be tormented forever and ever.

 

Now, Jesus said something interesting concerning having the fear of Yahweh. He told us not to fear those who can kill the body but not the soul, but to fear the One who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. (Which I believe is a reference to the Lake of Fire) It's this saying from Jesus that always kept me open to the idea of annihilation, due to His use of the words "kill" and "destroy". There is the sensation of being completely wiped out. Its hard to connect suffering eternally with being destroyed. As for the devil, it is definitely implied he will be tormented forever from Revelation 20:10. And this actually goes well with another saying of Jesus, saying the eternal fire was prepared for the devil and his angels. This placed was actually designed for the devil and all the fallen angels with him. It was never intended for humans. However those who join in the rebellion of the devil, they will go with him into this place. With it not being specifically designed for them, perhaps they will burn up completely.

 

With all that said, what about the anti-christ and the false prophet? Revelation 20:10 states they will be tormented forever and ever right along with the devil. So wouldn't that oppose to the idea of annihilation? The interesting thing about the anti-christ and the false prophet, it is possible these two might not be completely human. In Genesis 6, we are introduced to a race of people called the Nephilim. It's possible the anti-christ and the false prophet may be Nephilim, sons of a human mother and a fallen angel. The anti-christ may indeed be the literal son of the devil himself. (Counteracting Jesus being the Son of God) If this is the case, them being part fallen angel, they will continue to exist in the Lake of Fire. So those are some thoughts I wanted to share with everyone. Let me know your thoughts.

It's really simple when you go at it in its simplicity...

What is first thing required to be a living soul here on earth?  A body and for this realm it is made from the dust of the earth, it is terrestrial.  God puts 'a spirit' in the womb, the flesh and blood body is 'knit' to it.  When the body dies, that spirit either goes UP or DOWN.  It is nothing more than a change in 'dimension/realm/location'.  


Does that change of location take place in another body?  YES.  Is that body basically just like this one?  YES.  Can we be POSITIVE?  YES, especially if we have been given to understand parables.  Are there those who disagree?  YES, they haven't.  

In a body?  YES
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36  Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37  And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.


Where we go when the first body experiences 'dying/being killed/being destroyed/going back to dust/being buried/placed in a tomb/seeing corruption/spirit leaving it' for the

CHANGE OF LOCATION, A REALM CHANGE aka FIRST DEATH, death of body yet NOT the soul, so NOT the lake of fire, 

22  And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23  And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

At this point we know Abraham is in heaven with GOD and we know this by what was said at the burning bush...God is the God of THE LIVING and NOT THE DEAD.  

So, at the FIRST DEATH one will EITHER

keep existing as one of the LIVING, living on as one of the LIVING in heaven, in a heavenly/celestial/next realm body 

or

keep existing as one of the DEAD, living on IN HELL, as one of the DEAD, YET also in a 'heavenly/celestial/next realm body


24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25  But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

So, no one has died yet, there has just been an ongoing separation between Israel and everyone else which will continue on until Christ returns and everyone on earth will EITHER have a mark of the beast or not.  Those who have the mark will die their first death and have their terrestrial body eaten by birds or be one of the ALIVE and remaining (without being marked) and be 'changed in the blink of an eye'.  



Questions with answers



Is God a 'consuming' fire or not?

Would there be pain, or sorrow, or crying in the lake of fire?  

Does God remain 'angry' forever?

What 'deed' done on earth within the span of 100 years, could ever require 'never ending torment' for 'justice' to be served?  What would be the purpose?  Where is there any mercy found in that?  Would God REALLY 'create' souls and give them freewill just to torment them forever for choosing to be a 'bad' one?  

If there is 'no more death' and THE 2ND DEATH is 'eternal punishment' then how can there be eternal punishment with no more death? 


If the lake of fire comes at the end of the Lords Day at the GWTJ, and that is before the NHNE comes, then how is it not of the former things?  Is the 'lake of fire' of this 'age' or not?
  

A New Heaven and a New Earth

1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5  And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7  He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Isn't A PART just a portion and not the whole thing?



 

[Hinds Feet]

One thing I would say is if indeed the ultimate consequence of unrighteousness is eternal torment, I wouldn't question God over His justice system.  The punishment for certain crimes more often than not depends upon who you are committing the crime against.  If I pushed a random person on the street, I may or may not get away with it.  If I pushed a cop, I could end up dead.  So depending on the status of the person we are sinning against, the punishment could be more severe.  So when it comes to sinning against Yahweh, King over the universe and existence itself, that may carry the weight of an eternal conscious punishment. (We are sinning against the eternal Being)

But even in this, to be annihilated also bears an eternal consequence.  That is being forever erased from existence.  All in all, I trust God's judgments.