Choice of Denomination

[st. Worm]

thanks Smalcald.

I suspected I was dealing with some new cult or sect. Camping is indeed a nut case. I thought this latest craze of his was over and done with. Guess I am behind on things.

Well off to bed now for sure!

[MrSealedEternal]

and reject the system of works taught by their "churches."

What do you consider a work? When the confessions of my church specifically teach justification by faith and faith alone in Christ who are you to say my church does not teach the gospel?

It's not what you declare that matters but what you believe. I've had Mormons in my home who looked me in the eyes and said they believed that exact same thing. Then we sat and talked for an hour, and I was able to see where their faith really was. They're working their way to Heaven, just like every other false religion.

I was in a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church when I first started seeking after God. I heard my pastor say repeatedly that he believes in "justification by faith alone." But over time I realized that they really meant by keeping sacramental works. The fact that they baptized babies is proof that they believe in sacraments. Also when they talked about communion, it was clear that they believed they maintained their salvation by partaking in it.

I also noticed that others had not been spiritually reborn like I had. It's difficult to put into words, but there is something different about a person who is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. My ex-pastor even said one time in regard to the second birth, "born again, whatever that means." Obviously he hasn't been, and neither had anyone else in the Church.

I am convinced that it is the false gospel of sacramental salvation that prevents people from being saved. You can't trust Christ if you are trusting yourself to perform religious works. You have denied Christ, and cheapened His sacrifice. He is not impressed by our religiosity. He wants us to trust Him.

It would be like if I gave you a brand new 50 thousand dollar car, and said I am offering this to you out of the love of my heart, and I want nothing in return. Then you say "Here, let me give you a nickel for it."

I'm not going to be thankful that you gave me a nickel. You will have offended me, and cheapened my gift to you.

In the same way, your religious works are as filthy rags to a Holy God. If you think you deserve to be saved because you sprinkle some water on yourself, and eat some bread and wine, you are offending Him. He wants you to trust Him with all of your heart, which means you have to let go of your safety net (sacraments). If you trust even one percent on yourself, then you are not trusting Him. The concept of sacraments was invented so that man could cover his own sins, and not rely on God.

You

[Pax]

Don't consider myself a conservative Lutheran but a confessional one. Obviously the largest Lutheran denomination ELCA is Lutheran in name only.

Trent?

If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

[ONE WHO WISHES TO LOVE GOD]

St. worm

There is a movement espoused by Harold Camping of Family radio which says that now is the time to come out of all Christian denominations or any organized Christian churches, he is obviously a bit strange. I like some of what he says actually, but unfortunately the looniness overrides his points, and of course he is unbiblical.

But I do see his infection kind of running around the internet and unfortunately in some evangelical circles, the idea that there is no such thing as a visible church on earth, that each believer should in effect be their own pope, their own authority to interpret as they will, and refuse to be under the authority of appointed deacons, elders ministers or any overseers as directed for believers in the bible. And in fact a unity of belief with any other group of Christians would be a sign that you don't have true belief, it gets stranger and stranger.

Of course it is great for radio and t.v. Ministries.

well to quote Martin Luther himself I am a man and I can error however inless I am convinced by scripture and by plain reason and not by Popes or councails who have so often contradicted themselves my consciece is held captive to the word of God to go against consciece is neither right or safe I CAN NOT AND WILL NOT RECANT..............

tell me what church or what authority did Martin Luther submit to

I will tell you by what authority he and we are to submit to, it is the Word of God.

please consider this point Smalcald if Martin Luther held to what you just now sugested there would have been no reformation, furthermore Martin did show that we are to take a stand even if it means we stand alone. please Smalcald give me your thoughts on this

[Pax]

St. worm

There is a movement espoused by Harold Camping of Family radio which says that now is the time to come out of all Christian denominations or any organized Christian churches, he is obviously a bit strange. I like some of what he says actually, but unfortunately the looniness overrides his points, and of course he is unbiblical.

But I do see his infection kind of running around the internet and unfortunately in some evangelical circles, the idea that there is no such thing as a visible church on earth, that each believer should in effect be their own pope, their own authority to interpret as they will, and refuse to be under the authority of appointed deacons, elders ministers or any overseers as directed for believers in the bible. And in fact a unity of belief with any other group of Christians would be a sign that you don't have true belief, it gets stranger and stranger.

Of course it is great for radio and t.v. Ministries.

well to quote Martin Luther himself I am a man and I can error however inless I am convinced by scripture and by plain reason and not by Popes or councails who have so often contradicted themselves my consciece is held captive to the word of God to go against consciece is neither right or safe I CAN NOT AND WILL NOT RECANT..............

tell me what church or what authority did Martin Luther submit to

I will tell you by what authority he and we are to submit to, it is the Word of God.

please consider this point Smalcald if Martin Luther held to what you just now sugested there would have been no reformation, furthermore Martin did show that we are to take a stand even if it means we stand alone. please Smalcald give me your thoughts on this

One doesn't have to read much of Martin Luthers writing to realize that he had issues. Many of things he wrote were quite vulger.....I cerrtainly wouldn't write them on here for anyone to read. There is a great book called "Luther" by Tan publishing. They used Luthers writings to show what he stood for. Very scary.

[ONE WHO WISHES TO LOVE GOD]

St. worm

There is a movement espoused by Harold Camping of Family radio which says that now is the time to come out of all Christian denominations or any organized Christian churches, he is obviously a bit strange. I like some of what he says actually, but unfortunately the looniness overrides his points, and of course he is unbiblical.

But I do see his infection kind of running around the internet and unfortunately in some evangelical circles, the idea that there is no such thing as a visible church on earth, that each believer should in effect be their own pope, their own authority to interpret as they will, and refuse to be under the authority of appointed deacons, elders ministers or any overseers as directed for believers in the bible. And in fact a unity of belief with any other group of Christians would be a sign that you don't have true belief, it gets stranger and stranger.

Of course it is great for radio and t.v. Ministries.

well to quote Martin Luther himself I am a man and I can error however inless I am convinced by scripture and by plain reason and not by Popes or councails who have so often contradicted themselves my consciece is held captive to the word of God to go against consciece is neither right or safe I CAN NOT AND WILL NOT RECANT..............

tell me what church or what authority did Martin Luther submit to

I will tell you by what authority he and we are to submit to, it is the Word of God.

please consider this point Smalcald if Martin Luther held to what you just now sugested there would have been no reformation, furthermore Martin did show that we are to take a stand even if it means we stand alone. please Smalcald give me your thoughts on this

One doesn't have to read much of Martin Luthers writing to realize that he had issues. Many of things he wrote were quite vulger.....I cerrtainly wouldn't write them on here for anyone to read. There is a great book called "Luther" by Tan publishing. They used Luthers writings to show what he stood for. Very scary.

Pax I dont know about Martin Luthers other writings however in these he was right on the mark when it comes to taking a stand against a church who clearly had gone way beyond scripture in fact if the reformation had not taken placet the bible might still only be in latin and people still being burned at the stake for traslating it. I am sorry but the Catholic Donmantion has by far the most bloody history and is unfit to be considered an authority of true Christian virtue. However there are many Catholics that do indeed reflect real Christian virtue and are our brothers and sisters.

[ONE WHO WISHES TO LOVE GOD]

St. worm

There is a movement espoused by Harold Camping of Family radio which says that now is the time to come out of all Christian denominations or any organized Christian churches, he is obviously a bit strange. I like some of what he says actually, but unfortunately the looniness overrides his points, and of course he is unbiblical.

But I do see his infection kind of running around the internet and unfortunately in some evangelical circles, the idea that there is no such thing as a visible church on earth, that each believer should in effect be their own pope, their own authority to interpret as they will, and refuse to be under the authority of appointed deacons, elders ministers or any overseers as directed for believers in the bible. And in fact a unity of belief with any other group of Christians would be a sign that you don't have true belief, it gets stranger and stranger.

Of course it is great for radio and t.v. Ministries.

well to quote Martin Luther himself I am a man and I can error however inless I am convinced by scripture and by plain reason and not by Popes or councails who have so often contradicted themselves my consciece is held captive to the word of God to go against consciece is neither right or safe I CAN NOT AND WILL NOT RECANT..............

tell me what church or what authority did Martin Luther submit to

I will tell you by what authority he and we are to submit to, it is the Word of God.

please consider this point Smalcald if Martin Luther held to what you just now sugested there would have been no reformation, furthermore Martin did show that we are to take a stand even if it means we stand alone. please Smalcald give me your thoughts on this

One doesn't have to read much of Martin Luthers writing to realize that he had issues. Many of things he wrote were quite vulger.....I cerrtainly wouldn't write them on here for anyone to read. There is a great book called "Luther" by Tan publishing. They used Luthers writings to show what he stood for. Very scary.

Hey Pax I dont know about Martin Luthers other writing however had not the refermation taken place The Cathiolic church would probably be still burning people alive for trying to traslate the bible in the common tunge maybe Martin did have issuse however considering the alturnitve the Cathlic church they have the most bloody history over all others.

[ONE WHO WISHES TO LOVE GOD]

St. worm

There is a movement espoused by Harold Camping of Family radio which says that now is the time to come out of all Christian denominations or any organized Christian churches, he is obviously a bit strange. I like some of what he says actually, but unfortunately the looniness overrides his points, and of course he is unbiblical.

But I do see his infection kind of running around the internet and unfortunately in some evangelical circles, the idea that there is no such thing as a visible church on earth, that each believer should in effect be their own pope, their own authority to interpret as they will, and refuse to be under the authority of appointed deacons, elders ministers or any overseers as directed for believers in the bible. And in fact a unity of belief with any other group of Christians would be a sign that you don't have true belief, it gets stranger and stranger.

Of course it is great for radio and t.v. Ministries.

well to quote Martin Luther himself I am a man and I can error however inless I am convinced by scripture and by plain reason and not by Popes or councails who have so often contradicted themselves my consciece is held captive to the word of God to go against consciece is neither right or safe I CAN NOT AND WILL NOT RECANT..............

tell me what church or what authority did Martin Luther submit to

I will tell you by what authority he and we are to submit to, it is the Word of God.

please consider this point Smalcald if Martin Luther held to what you just now sugested there would have been no reformation, furthermore Martin did show that we are to take a stand even if it means we stand alone. please Smalcald give me your thoughts on this

One doesn't have to read much of Martin Luthers writing to realize that he had issues. Many of things he wrote were quite vulger.....I cerrtainly wouldn't write them on here for anyone to read. There is a great book called "Luther" by Tan publishing. They used Luthers writings to show what he stood for. Very scary.

Hey Pax I dont know about Martin Luthers other writing however had not the reformation taken place The Catholic church would probably be still burning people alive for trying to traslate the bible in the common tung

Edited December 27, 2005 by ONE WHO WISHES TO LOVE GOD

[st. Worm]

quote:

"If a person looks up the word "anathema" in the dictionary it means excommunicated or strongly denounced. Neither of which means one is going to hell. This means that the person is in grave danger of going to hell but could still come back to the Church and the fullness of the truth."

Excommunicated means denounced as an unbeliever in church parlance. That means going to hell if true. And yes, if one recanted the truth that he was saved by faith ALONE in Christ then he could return and be a Roman Catholic in good standing provided he had not been burned at the stake. Point is Pax you are wrong when you say your church has not condemned Protestants to hell over the issue of salvation. Its in writing for all to see.

Luther changed the Sacraments to two since those were the only ones actually instituted by Jesus himself.

And for those who are complaining about Luther's sometimes bawdy language he definitely was not into pietism. He called a thing what it was including his own sin. No phony moralism that much of Christianity has become today. Even when confronted with his own greatness Luther said that while God carried out the Reformation he and Melancthon sat around and drank beer. Luther knew what he was but also knew who had saved him.

[ONE WHO WISHES TO LOVE GOD]

quote:

"If a person looks up the word "anathema" in the dictionary it means excommunicated or strongly denounced. Neither of which means one is going to hell. This means that the person is in grave danger of going to hell but could still come back to the Church and the fullness of the truth."

Excommunicated means denounced as an unbeliever in church parlance. That means going to hell if true. And yes, if one recanted the truth that he was saved by faith ALONE in Christ then he could return and be a Roman Catholic in good standing provided he had not been burned at the stake. Point is Pax you are wrong when you say your church has not condemned Protestants to hell over the issue of salvation. Its in writing for all to see.

Luther changed the Sacraments to two since those were the only ones actually instituted by Jesus himself.

And for those who are complaining about Luther's sometimes bawdy language he definitely was not into pietism. He called a thing what it was including his own sin. No phony moralism that much of Christianity has become today. Even when confronted with his own greatness Luther said that while God carried out the Reformation he and Melancthon sat around and drank beer. Luther knew what he was but also knew who had saved him.

Well Worm on this we can agree on but dont get use to it