Homosexuality- how bad is it...

[apothanein kerdos]

I have been reading/ have read from credible biology and psychology sources...not what I'd consider "humanistic writings,

Darwinian biology and psychology, no matter how "credible", is almost completely monopolized by humanistic/naturalistic philosophy. In fact, reading the "experts" almost promises you are reading people who are so far into naturalistic philosophy anything opposite of it isn't worth their consideration. It's important you realize this whilst you're studying.

It's like saying, "I'm reading about why Facism can work. These are nut jobs either, they're the most respected Facists in the world."

[hebrews_beauty]

Darwinian biology and psychology, no matter how "credible", is almost completely monopolized by humanistic/naturalistic philosophy. In fact, reading the "experts" almost promises you are reading people who are so far into naturalistic philosophy anything opposite of it isn't worth their consideration. It's important you realize this whilst you're studying.

Ok. While this may or may not be true, I'm familiar with what different research has indicated, both on the biology and psychology side. Just because research may sometimes come from people who don't have the same faith as me doesn't completely invalidate the research. I'm aware that things can later be found to be false, as has happened plenty of times and will happen in the future because we don't have all the answers to everything; however, we just need to go by what we know at any given time, and try to understand as much as we can.

[ink_spot]

I don't think we should ever just completely discredit a source w/out looking further into it. Ok so i'm getting a little off topic, but my view of science is that God put science and scientific reasoning in this world to be used along with faith and His word. I don't think you can have good science w/out some faith and good faith w/out some science.

Well now that I've completely digressed....lol

[Smalcald]

Yeah I think we should look at science, but with Christian wisdom, but always look and understand what is being said within the scientific community.

Regarding gay sexual orientation, from what I have read we really don't have a good handle on why it occurs. There is some slight evidence of genetic differences among gays; there is stronger evidence that something happens in early childhood, which twists their sexual desires.

The problem for me is that I think it is good to find out exactly what is going on so we can work on ways to change these desires, and that work was going on in the scientific community until they decided that gay sexual desire was "normal" behavior and thus there would be no reason to try to change and help these people, in the end it was a political decision by the scientific community to stop work on ways to change these abnormal sexual desires.

We must have compassion for people with these desires, in most instances gays, which are committed gays (not bisexuals or try sexual experimenters), do not feel that they have a choice in how they feel and who they are attracted to.

But after saying that it is still sin, many of our most besetting sins which dog us are often very hard for us to shake, alcoholism, pedophilia, kleptomania, addiction to porn, other sexual fetishes. So we need to have compassion, but never waiver on the clarity that the Word of God provides about the fact that God's intentions for sexual expression is one man and one women in marriage, exactly as Christ defined it. We don't need to go to Sodom to discuss that sin, we can simply look at 1Romans, or look at Christ

[deadman1204]

Reguardless of how terrible a person's life is, are you doing them ANY good by just telling them how terrible a person they are right away?

Whats more important, knowing Jesus or not sinning? As its impossible for us to live a sinless life, knowing Jesus should be the priority. No one can stop another person from sinning, its thier choice to act that way. But you can help them to know God's love. From there, they can try to change thier live to express thier love of God.

Hate the sin, not the sinner.

[apothanein kerdos]

You can't know God's love and understand it until you realize that you lead a life of sin....

[Smalcald]

Reguardless of how terrible a person's life is, are you doing them ANY good by just telling them how terrible a person they are right away?

Whats more important, knowing Jesus or not sinning? As its impossible for us to live a sinless life, knowing Jesus should be the priority. No one can stop another person from sinning, its thier choice to act that way. But you can help them to know God's love. From there, they can try to change thier live to express thier love of God.

Hate the sin, not the sinner.

Well I totally agree.

I think though that with gay sex and sexual behavior in general we need to understand for ourselves what we believe and what sound doctrine is, before we talk to the outside about it. Right now some in the Christian community are claiming that gay sex is not sin, that gay marriage is okay and that actively gay men or women can be ministers and bishops. This is heretical teaching totally against the Word of God, so we should be very clear about what God's intentions for sexual behavior are, and what sexual sin is.

I would not use this type of discussion to evangelize or speak to a person about Christ, any person gay or straight. The first thing as you mention is spreading the Gospel of Christ

[deadman1204]

You can't know God's love and understand it until you realize that you lead a life of sin....

This is true. I didnt mean to suggest that a person living in sin shouldnt be advised of this. My point was how it is done. If a person comes across all fire and brimestone - the sinner will not listen to them for a second. What would you think if you were not saved and someone came and said "God hates everything about your life, your terrible the way you live, just damnably awful! Wanna hear more?" Thats gonna turn just about anyone off.

Jesus's message was love, not hate. First tell the person about God's love, not just a list of restrictions. We want the person to listen, so we should try to bring God's message across in a way he will listen to it - aka not as an assult against the person. Its up to him/her to change thier life. Bringing them God's message can help them reform far more than anything else we can do.

Otherwise, a case could be made to be bigotted against smokers, speeders, heck about anyone. We are all guilty of sins.

*I should add I do not mean to change/soften the message. But you can still mention it in ways that don't come across as someone high and mighty condemning a sinner.

Edited December 29, 2005 by deadman1204

[Smalcald]

I agree Deadman.

A useful example in dealing with the gay community is how we deal with people living in re-marriages from divorces, which were unbiblical. Do we go charging in and say well you know you left your wife for this new women and that was an unbiblical divorce so you are actually now married to two women and living in fornication? No we don't say that to divorced people, at least I hope we are not! But sexual sin is sexual sin and we should be consistent.

[apothanein kerdos]

You can't know God's love and understand it until you realize that you lead a life of sin....

This is true. I didnt mean to suggest that a person living in sin shouldnt be advised of this. My point was how it is done. If a person comes across all fire and brimestone - the sinner will not listen to them for a second. What would you think if you were not saved and someone came and said "God hates everything about your life, your terrible the way you live, just damnably awful! Wanna hear more?" Thats gonna turn just about anyone off.

Jesus's message was love, not hate. First tell the person about God's love, not just a list of restrictions. We want the person to listen, so we should try to bring God's message across in a way he will listen to it - aka not as an assult against the person. Its up to him/her to change thier life. Bringing them God's message can help them reform far more than anything else we can do.

Otherwise, a case could be made to be bigotted against smokers, speeders, heck about anyone. We are all guilty of sins.

*I should add I do not mean to change/soften the message. But you can still mention it in ways that don't come across as someone high and mighty condemning a sinner.

I agree, its just sometimes people try to put all the "love" into witnessing and take out other key facts. In this culture the most effective way to witness is basically to tell the "creation, fall, redemption" story...that we were created to have perfect fellowship with God, fell and are now sinners living sinful lifestyles, and only Jesus can restore that fellowship.

Unfortunately too many groups put all the emphasis on the fall (hellfire and brimstone), all the emphasis on the creation (God loves us all because He created us), or all the emphasis on redemption (God wants to save us all). Each one, when overloaded or undercovered, presents an inadequate Gospel story. I think when dealing with homosexuals, we have to tell them that they are living in sin, the earthly and eternal consequences of this sin, and how to be saved of it.

I only say all that so you understand that I am definately not a "hellfire and brimstone" person...I just believe in a very rounded approach.