Jew or Gentile?

[deadman1204]

As a believer you are in NO way made a Jew. Virtually no christian is a Jew. Jesus was a light for the gentiles. We are all gentiles as non-Jews, and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm happy enough to be a child of God, why want more?

As proof that most christians cannot be jews, see revelations. Not until the tribulation does the Isreal turn back to the lord and accept him. All throughout the book of acts, the jews rejected Christ, so the teachings were brought to the gentiles. "to the jews first, and then the gentiles."

I think it takes more than having a 1000yr+ old ancestor to be jewish. What the delineation is I cannot say. But the samaritans were not jews and they were originally related.

[Kabowd]

[aaronjm]

These attitudes are what keep many Jews from accepting Yeshua into their life. Jews and Christians need to find common ground, and accept each other. You probably blame the Jews for Yeshua's death, but we should not forget that Yeshua was a JEW. The Father killed Yeshua, not man, and without His blood we are nothing to the Father, that goes for Jew, and Gentile alike. Isaiah talks about the two houses of Israel coming together Judah and Ephraim, are you not part of that?? You mention the word Jew and everyone goes crazy, all I was saying that by accepting Yeshua into your life you become part of the family of G-d, nothing more, nothing less. A Jew is not a Jew by his acts, a Jew is a Jew because of his heart, I am Proud to stand up for Israel, and I will never fall from that. I am ALWAYS open minded to what you have to say, never will I discount anyone's beliefs on this, this is how I feel, and if you disagree that is fine, I am growing as a Christian/Jew/Believer........ and am still learning, all I know is that is there is no salvation by followoing the Torah alone, but it is a good thing to live by. Only Christ's blood justifies us from sin, is there anything wrong with believing that??? Shalom friends.

Aaron

[Guest shiloh357]

Actually it is this remark that we are primarily taking issue with.

I double dog dare you...

When you accept Christ into your life you are made a Jew.

This is utterly false.

[deadman1204]

Look at the history of the nation of isreal. There is a reason there was such thing as a "rightous gentile". Those who followed the Noaic covenant for example. Because the covenants God made with the Jews were not for them. The Jews never prosletyized because God's message to them was ONLY to the Jews. If you believed on the lord before christ, you were counted a rightous gentile. Nothing has changed. Christian is not and never will be synonymous with Jewish.

[nebula]

Hey Shiloh!

Are you getting a little worn out by other debates to not explain ourself here?

aaron -

I appreciate what you are saying in that we Gentiles in receiving christ (Messiah) become spiritual seed of Abraham.

I think what these guys are trying to say is that Jews are a race and Judaism is a religion.

Turning to faith in Messiah doesn't change your bloodline, and Judaism isn't exactly the religion practiced in the Bible - it got changed after the temple's destruction in 70AD.

Does that make sense?

[Guest shiloh357]

Look at the history of the nation of isreal. There is a reason there was such thing as a "rightous gentile". Those who followed the Noaic covenant for example. Because the covenants God made with the Jews were not for them. The Jews never prosletyized because God's message to them was ONLY to the Jews. If you believed on the lord before christ, you were counted a rightous gentile. Nothing has changed. Christian is not and never will be synonymous with Jewish.

Those who followed the Noaic covenant for example. Because the covenants God made with the Jews were not for them.

The Tzaddik Goyim (righteous Gentiles) were not following the "Noaic Covenant." There were following a set of laws called the Noachide Laws. These are found in the Talmud. Totally different than the Noaic Covenant. These people are later called "God-fearers" or the Sebemanoi in the book of Acts. They were partial proselytes to the Jewish faith.

The Jews never prosletyized because God's message to them was ONLY to the Jews.

That is not true. The Jewish people, prior to Christian, anti-semtism actively sought converts to their faith; not to the same degree as evangelical Christianty, though. Today Modern Judaism, is not so quick on the whole proselyte thing.

God's message was never "only to the Jews." God simply chose the Jewish people out of the all the people of the world to be an evangelistic arm to reach the world to Himself. Even in the days of Solomon, the Temple was called, "A house of prayer for all people."

Christian is not and never will be synonymous with Jewish.

This is true in the sense that a Gentile does not become a Jew when they are born again. The misunderstanding so may have is based upon a misinterpretation of Romans 2:28,29. Too often, I get people telling me that they are Jews because of Jesus, based upon that passage.

Paul was talking about what makes a Jewish person truly Jewish. He was speaking against the pride that he himself experienced as a Pharisee. Paul was speaking against the pride that caused some Jewish people to glory in their pedigree.

Starting back at v. 17, Paul is talking to Jews. Paul has already demonstrated in the previous verses, that being without the Torah does not necessarily place the Gentiles at a disadvantage. Paul nows goes after Jewish pride that places its faith in the external practices, and boasts in the Torah/Law.

In boasting and abusing their Jewishness, Paul says that they have become the very antithesis of what Torah observance, and Jewishness really is. In their foolish pride, they both dishonor God and instead of being a light to the Gentiles, the cause the Gentiles to blaspheme God, sending them further and further into darkness.

Paul goes even further and tells them that those who are uncircumcised but have fulfilled the righteousness of the law (this is done by faith in Messiah), will sit in judgement of those to whom the law was given in the first place. The very ones who should have been glorifying God and being a light to world will, through their hypocrisy and pride find themselves judged by the very ones they presumed were in darkness. The Gentiles who, through the Messiah fulfill the righteousness of the Torah will stand as a continual judgement against those whose boast is solely in their legalistic performance of Torah, and not in God.

Paul then tells his Jewish audience the Jewish person who wears his Jewishness on his sleeve, who goes about making an obnoxious, ostentatious display of his pedigree is, in fact, not a Jew. He commands others to keep the Torah while violating it himself, He takes pride in the advantages he has as if they were his own accomplishments, and not the provision of the Lord, and in doing so he has no place in the Kingdom of God.

Paul tells his Jewish audience in these verses that their outward circumcision is not the essence of their Jewishness. It is the circumcision of the heart, the cutting away of the fleshly desires and attitudes that prevent them from living as those who praise is of God.

[deadman1204]

Not true.

God's promises were to the Jews and the nation of Isreal, not to all people at that time. Where in the old testament is the nation of Isreal commanded to preach to lords word to all the world? That is the beauty of Christ. Gods word is to be spread to all peoples of the earth now. Religion is removed from the temple and spread to all.

Also, followers of the noaic covenant were simply an example I used. They are not all inclusive of all Rightous Gentiles. There were others that did come to know the lord that were counted as rightous. They did not become jewish however.

Edited December 31, 2005 by deadman1204

[aaronjm]

I hate how people like to fight and argue over the stupidest little things. Catholics do this wrong, Presbyterians do that wrong, the only thing that I go by is the Holy Spirit, and Him alone. If something doesn't feel right to you in a certain denomination, then listen to that voice inside of you, but don't criticize the ones you left behind because you feel that you are right. Truth is, the stupid little things we argue about will continue to be argued about untill the return of Yeshua/Jesus. People on this board are so quick to start a fight, it is disgusting behavior, you will never grow in your walk if you constantly put down people, and make them feel ignorant for what they believe. You under no circumstance have to agree with them, but you have to respect their right to believe what they believe. Everyone can back up any statement with scripture, that is why we have divisions in the Christian church, one feels this verse says this, another says it means something different. We need to quit all this childish bickering, and come together as Brothers in Christ. As long as someone accepts Yeshua/Jesus in their life, I dont care if they go to a Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, church, or even if they dont go to church at all, I just care about getting that seed planted, and leave the rest to G-d. G-d bless you.

Aaron

[Guest shiloh357]

Not true.

God's promises were to the Jews and the nation of Isreal, not to all people at that time. Where in the old testament is the nation of Isreal commanded to preach to lords word to all the world? That is the beauty of Christ. Gods word is to be spread to all peoples of the earth now. Religion is removed from the temple and spread to all.

Also, followers of the noaic covenant were simply an example I used. They are not all inclusive of all Rightous Gentiles. There were others that did come to know the lord that were counted as rightous. They did not become jewish however.

Again, there were no followers of the Noaic Covenant. You are just confused. So it was a incorrect example.

There were certain covenantal blessings that were specific to Israel, but to think that God was not interested, even in that day, of showing His mercy to the Gentiles is just plain wrong. As I said, the Temple was not meant to be limited to just the Jews. It was to be a house of prayer for all people. It was through Israel that God wanted to show Himself to the nations. From the very beginning, God's interest has been to bring redemption to the world. Even though Israel was not commanded to preach per se, it was through Israel that God wanted to reveal His character and operations to the world and in doing so, use Israel as means of bringing the world to Himself.