st. Worm Posted January 1, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted January 1, 2006 horizen, I count your personal attack all as joy. May your sin not be counted against you. Blessings, SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSealedEternal Posted January 1, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 428 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 32 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/03/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted January 1, 2006 horizen, My humble advice to you is go find a decent seminary near your home if you can and take a good course in church history. Also try and find a course on Luther's theology that hopefully will include a comprehensive study on his views regarding the Sacraments so then you will see how different his views are than the RCC. If you can't find one let me know and I will recommend some good writings you can read. Then, take a course in systematic theology and then one on the Old Testament and one on the New Testament. Then come back when you are done and we will discuss baptism on hopefully the same level. Blessings, Saint Worm In other words, you can't get this stuff from God's Word. We're not qualified to understand the scriptures until we've been thoroughly indoctrinated into the apostasies of men throughout history. That's the same elitist attitude that the Catholic hierarchy uses to tell it's sheep to rely on them to understand God rather than reading it for themselves, and this is all based on the false pretext of who the "Church" is which I have thoroughly discussed elsewhere. Christ is the head of the Church, and His Word is the only training anyone needs. Mr SE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted January 2, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted January 2, 2006 If that is what you believe Mr. SE then why worry about having a trained and educated pastorate? Heck, just put a monkey in the pulpit since no training or study is required and let God do the rest. Good grief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted January 2, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted January 2, 2006 With regard to the Psalm, Nebula you are refusing to read the verse you point out in context to the verses around it. David is clearly confessing not only his sinful actions but the fact he was a sinner from the time of his conception. There is simply no other way to interpret this if you read all of the verses together. Just saying it has to do with his mother does not make it so. Why in the world would David confess sin for being an illegitimate child? Even if true, it certainly was not his sin. I explained how I was keeping it in context. And the wording says, "In sin my mother conceived me," not "sin was conceived in me." Considering what sin he had committed - the context fits with his confession. As far as Luther goes, he knew that even though he was declared just in the sight of God for Christ's sake, that he was also still a sinner. Same goes for you and me and David. Paul lamented that in spite of his salvation that he was still the chief of sinners. The Bible tells us to confess our sins and God will faithfully forgive us. And "if we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Yes, Paul bemoned being a sinner, but did he leave it hanging there? "Who will save me? . . . Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ! . . . There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. . . . " Do you honestly believe it is the Lord's will for us to continuously walk around moaning, "Bless me, O Lord, for I am a human scum bag," and then whacking ourselves over the head with a 10-lb. Bible? I used to be like that. I hated myself for my sin. But when asked what sin I had committed that I hated myself for, my answer was, "I don't know, I'm just a sinner." I would repeat the pre-written corporate confession of sin during church service. Didn't make me feel any better. My life hadn't change one iota. It turns out I had clinical chronic depression. One of the steps in reprogramming my mindset in order to overcome this thing, I had to stop thinking of myself as a loathsome sinner. Instead, I needed to ask the Lord to reveal sin to me, and as I was made to be aware of any particular specific sin brought to my attention, to present this before the Lord, to ask for His forgiveness, cleansing, and change in my life. Doing that, finally, my life began to actually change for the better, and I found I could be happy with who I am rather than berating myself all the time. The Lord's Supper is not something we do for God. It is something God does for us. It is a means of grace. We come to the Table sorry for our sins and sad that we are not more obedient and better Christians. We do come to remember what Jesus did for us but that is not the main purpose of the Sacrament. It is God's good service to us. Did Jesus instruct His disciples on confessing sin when He passed out the bread and wine? And what does it mean to you that Jesus said, "Remember Me?" (I ask these question for discussion - please answer them, OK?) At the cross Christ did not make us clean as you say, but suffered our punishment and drank the cup of wrath that should be ours. We are then counted as righteous and receive the benefits of the cross by faith. However we continue to sin in thought word and deed. Does your church not have a time of corporate confession during the service? I thought I mentioned our righteousness is by faith? 1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. But this is the verse I had in the back of my head when mentioning the cleansing - I mean, He shed His blood on the Cross, and His blood cleanses, so. . . . The churches I've been to since I left my Lutheran congregation have had times of confession, but they were private confessions before the Lord, asking Him to reveal sin in our lives and then confessing those specific things. You know, it's a lot harder to confess specific sins than a confessing general sin. But it sure works transformation in you a whole lot faster! I recommend reading something from a Lutheran perspective about what Luther really believed because you seem to have a very skewed view so I assume you are receiving biased information about that. No, I was trying to recall what I learned in Catechism class. I was where you are now several years ago. I had no idea of things like original sin and the Sacraments. I was told those were just old Roman Catholic terms and not relevant today. How wrong I was. Well, I guess we're flip-flops of each other, because I left the Lutheran church! Again, I'm not arguing "original sin." I just don't believe in baptism preceding confession of faith and repentance of sin. And I believe that since baptism is a reflection of joining Christ in His death, burial and resurrection (Romans 6:4 - Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.), I believe in complete immersion (for how does water poured over the head mimic burial?). And I successfully managed to bring this topic back to the original argument! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted January 2, 2006 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,260 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,988 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 2, 2006 Next....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susansduval Posted January 5, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 33 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/28/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/15/1959 Share Posted January 5, 2006 1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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