Christianity and Capitalism

[Leonard]

edit: fixing typos

AD SERIATAM:

1. "I believe communism has been given a bad rap. The world examples were never communism anyway. China, USSR and such are dictatorships." Answer: Actually those governments are PERFECT examples of Communism at work. For far more interesting than the inane immaturity of THE COMMUNIST MANIFESTO, or the pedantic pretensions of DAS KAPITAL, are the personal letters which passed between Marx and Engles. In these DECADES of correspondence, Marx NOT ONCE says anything good about humanity. Indeed he goes on and on and on about how badly he HATES humanity. He says repeatedly that he is trying to build a political philosophy which will bring "permanent fire....war....suffering and bloodshed...' upon the human race! In his writings for consumption by a gullible public, Marx professes great concern for the world's poor, yet in his private writing, he has only hate, and the deepest, sickest, most alarming hate, for them. So these governments you mention ARE FULFILLING MARX'S DREAM. They are Communism EXACTLY as Marx designed it to work.

2. "The apostles after Jesus died were living a real communist example." Answer: First they were NOT a 'Communist example;' they believed in God! Second, they gave PRIVATELY OWNED PROPERTY, WILLINGLY. In Communism there is simply no private property to give, so all nobility of purpose in giving is lost. Third, even for them it didn't work. A few years later we find that Paul was taking up a collection ALL OVER THE WORLD, because the believers back in Jerusalem were living in such poverty. All their productive property had been foolishly wasted, and wealth that might have gone to serve others well, had instead been lost. Even the first colonists to America tried this experiment, and over half of them starved to death! Why? Because if people get to eat from their neighbor's crop, even if they just sit on their worthless cans and do nothing, then that's just exactly what they're going to do! The colony's journalist records that about half the people did not work their farms......

3. "Communism has something great in it that capitalsim can NEVER have. In communism, you are not attached to your property. It's everyones, thus elements of greed and temptation to be more attached to the physical do not exist." Answer: Ye do err because ye know not the Scripture, neither the power of God; ye do therefore greatly err! For God has said that when His government reigns over all the earth, "They shall sit every man of you under HIS OWN vine and under HIS OWN fig tree." THAT'S PRIVATE PROPERTY RIGHTS!!! And God is obviously FOR IT. Are you suggesting that those living under the squalid conditions Communism invariably causes, are NOT 'attached to the physical?' Let me tell you something, there is only one class of people more fixated on money and material things than are the rich; that class is the poor!

4. "Captitalism states that you must fight/out compete others for possesion of physical goods/money. That society (ours for example) places such a greater emphasis on material wealth, leaving a greater opening for sin." Answer: First of all, Spencer and Darwin said you must fight/out compete....not Capitalism itself. If the economy were a 'zero sum' game, where there was only 'so much' and everyone had to grab for it, you'd be correct. But the ideal of capitalism is that PEOPLE CREATE NEW WEALTH! Bill Gates for instance, created huge wealth for himself, but what he actually got, is only a TINY FRACTION of the new shared wealth he created for all of humanity. In fact, you and I right now, in this forum are beneficiaries of the creative GOOD of Capitalism, and the genius of Mr. Gates. You are correct that people will use material things for sin. I mean they make guns and shoot people...but when they didn't have ranged weaponry, they used sticks for the same evil purposes. So let's do away with all material possessions altogether, then while we sit naked outdoors exposed to the elements....oops, there's a problem there too: Somebody might make and throw a mud ball, or a snow ball, so let's do away with soil and precipitation.... Now then as we sit naked, outdoors and eat our......oops! Another problem has arisen. If we have food, we might use it to oppress somebody, somewhere....so we'll have to do away with food too. Well, anyway, as we sit....oops! Wait a minute.... People can still hit and kick one another, so lets do away with arms and legs...oh yes! And TEETH....and you know 'head butts' can be painful...so nobody has a heads in our perfect world. NOW: As we sit--armless, legless, headless stumps that we have become--naked and hungry in our completely dry, barren 'paradise,' we suddenly realize that ALL SIN IS FIRST IN OUR MINDS AND IN OUR CONCEPT OF THE SELF. Well we must do away with individual minds and individual selfs, and MAKE ALL CONFORM!!!! There, now you have the Marxist ideal. HOW DO YOU LIKE IT?

5. "I do not see how God is in favor of private property or protecting your wealth. Any of these things hinder our spiritual growth, as they cause us to worry about how much money we have, instead of sharing love/God's word with others." Answer: Of course above I demonstrated from the Scripture itself how God is in favor of Private Property Rights. As far as "protecting your wealth," Jesus was a realist Who said: "A strong man, armed, keepeth his house." As far as the ability to share 'love/God's word" no nation has ever been able share so much love, or send so many missionaries with God's word, as has the CAPITALIST UNITED STATES. Go figure......

6. "Remember the young lord who just couldnt give it all up to follow Jesus? How many times does Jesus say not to worry about tomorrow, if you will have enough food, or the right clothes? The birds do not raise/store food, yet the Father feeds them, and how much better are we than them?" These lessons are all well-taken. But the possession or non-possession of property can neither prevent the sin of covetousness.

I urge you to actually read THE COMMUNIST MANIFESTO. I think you will see it is a very stupid little book.

Edited January 1, 2006 by Leonard

[deadman1204]

I guess I need to more fully explain myself here. Just because I said communism has recieved a bad rap does not mean I fully support the entire sociological theorys of many of its founders. Everyone on this board takes things WAY to far.

I also find it shocking that someone would tell me I do not know the lords word and am greatly erring in everything I say when im advocating not vehemetely defending my own material wealth.

It seems most people here have political beliefs attached to the two words - captialism and communism. Communism (take the word apart - commune ism) exactly describes how the apostles lived. On a commune.

Ill drop out of this discussion as most seem more concerned about voicing thier view instead of discussion.

[MrSealedEternal]

I agree with Leonard about private property rights. It is a biblicaly based world view. It should be practiced with Christlike charity.

I think the old Jewish property laws express God's heart and mind on the matter, too.

So how about a year of Jubilee from the international bankers?

I think that sounds good.

Mrs. SE

Edited January 1, 2006 by Mr*MrsSealedEternal

[apothanein kerdos]

I guess I need to more fully explain myself here. Just because I said communism has recieved a bad rap does not mean I fully support the entire sociological theorys of many of its founders. Everyone on this board takes things WAY to far.

I also find it shocking that someone would tell me I do not know the lords word and am greatly erring in everything I say when im advocating not vehemetely defending my own material wealth.

It seems most people here have political beliefs attached to the two words - captialism and communism. Communism (take the word apart - commune ism) exactly describes how the apostles lived. On a commune.

Ill drop out of this discussion as most seem more concerned about voicing thier view instead of discussion.

I understand communism just fine. History/philosophy major...and I've dealt quite a bit with Rousseau and Marx, so I understand it. I've read the works of both so I feel qualified that I know this issue. Likewise, I fall more along the lines of a socialist than anything else. The fact is, the apostles did not live in a communistic way. The apostles did not live in a commune (they interacted with society), they voluntarily gave up posessions (there was no mandate to do so), rich were allowed into the group and didn't always share (from historical documents we have), there was still differences in positions (the slave girl who saw Peter at the door was still a slave), and the list goes on. The arguement could be made that they were voluntarily socialist, but to say they were communist is to show one has not studied communism or history.

LIkewise, I trust Leonard on what he is saying, because I'll bet he too has read the same materials.

[MrSealedEternal]

Well government intervention with business actually helps to increase the rights of the individual.

That all depends on the intervention, IMHO.

Thanks & God Bless,

Mrs. SE

[Kabowd]

Ill drop out of this discussion as most seem more concerned about voicing thier view instead of discussion.

I'm afraid you aren't going to last long on a discussion board with that attitude.....

[Leonard]

I guess I need to more fully explain myself here. Just because I said communism has recieved a bad rap does not mean I fully support the entire sociological theorys of many of its founders. Everyone on this board takes things WAY to far.

I also find it shocking that someone would tell me I do not know the lords word and am greatly erring in everything I say when im advocating not vehemetely defending my own material wealth.

It seems most people here have political beliefs attached to the two words - captialism and communism. Communism (take the word apart - commune ism) exactly describes how the apostles lived. On a commune.

Ill drop out of this discussion as most seem more concerned about voicing thier view instead of discussion.

Hey! I'm just discussing too! I'm stating MY opinions; or is that something only YOU are allowed to do? Seems like if somebody can show you why you're wrong, you want to pout, take your ball, and go home! Grow a little thicker hide, and keep talking.

You see, I was raised in a Communist household. I KNOW what it's about, and I assure you Communism has NOT received nearly as bad a 'rap' as it deserves. It is not yet universally calumniated and anathematized. It is not said with spitting and cursing every time it is said. No, Communism has not received nearly as bad a rap as it deserves.

And I thought, by the way, that I pointed out that lacuna in your knowledge of Scripture, with rather great charity! I would not tell the leprosy patient there was nothing wrong with him, and I will not tell someone who contradicts the Scripture that he is correct.

I think my approach will work out to be a blessing to you......

[Guest godsci]

In Acts, it seems as if the Early Christians seemed to live in a sort of socialistic community. IIRC, when a convert would join the community, they would sell all their possesions and give the money to the community.

Other thoughts occur:

-Capitalism, at it's very base (especially before the government stepped in), consists of taking advantage of the poor in order to get rich

-The whole point of Capitalism is to get rich, Christ said it's easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven

---I have heard this explained that this simply means that the rich tend to hoard their money and not give to the poor, at least in Christ's time, althoiugh I'm not completely convinced

There was more, but I forgot. I'll post more as they come to me .

Socialism and Communism are inconsistent with human nature (they tend to breed societies that tend to economic mediocrity -- since mediocrity is what is rewarded).

Socialism & Communism tend to see humans as basically Good and Other-oriented (both of which are false notions). This is why they tend to create societies with high levels of poverty (overall).

Capitalism is based on the concept that humans are basically self-centered and selfish (this is consistent with what the Bible tells us)...

The Classic work on this topic is Adam Smith "The Wealth of Nations"...

When humans are allowed to work to improve their lot (even if selfishly, as long as it is not destructive of others) then societies on the whole are improved economically... the socieity as a whole improves ... poverty is reduced (for anyone who is willing to work hard and make changes in their lives to improve themselves)...

We see this in the Capitalistic Western countries...

When socialism increases in a country, unemployment increases etc...

--

Comments:

1. The point of Capitalism does not have to be to take advantage of the poor (that is a zero-sum game mindset). Capitalism can instead be based on a grow-the-pie mindset (which benefits the poor as well as the rich).

2. There is nothing wrong with working to become rich, as long as that is done ethically, and we help others as well.

3. It is incorrect to view "the Rich hoarding their money" as being a bad thing ... the rich have excess money which they invest -- in banks or mutual funds or stocks or companies or industries -- all of which create jobs for others -- thereby giving poorer people hope and a chance to improve themselves.

Grace and Peace to you,

John

[apothanein kerdos]

Capitalism also brought about the destruction of the family, community, women value, masculinity, virtues, morals, caused the radical feminist movement, and so on. Before praising an economic system based upon a humanistic philosopher (Adam Smith), look at the effects of it.

[Leonard]

No; Capitalism did not bring those things--at least not intrinsically--or God would not be pro-capitalism. Unregenerate man brought those things, by abusing something good from God, just as man uses all sorts of God's good creation for sinful purposes......