Brokeback Mountain Review

[ayin jade]

Given the hostility in your posts, who Jesus is to you is a crucial question.

[freshcutgrass]

Disagreeing with someone on scripture is not hostility...it's debate.

Hostility is the way some of you on this forum treat homosexuals.

[ayin jade]

try and not be so knee-jerk about it, cause what I see is a whole lot of bandwagon jumping, immaturity and mindless scripture-quoting.

Excactly what I would expect a robot to reply.

Oh...fer crying out loud, that's just an avoidance tactic. Whenever pre-programed religious people run into snags, they always revert to this kind of crap. Who's jesus to me....not the homophobe one you seem worship, that's for sure.

That seems quite hostile. Surely there are more loving ways to express your views.

[freshcutgrass]

"That seems quite hostile. Surely there are more loving ways to express your views."

Maybe you just don't understand the definitions of words? It may be a little confrontational, but that's the point of a debate...you need to challenge people if anything is to be understood. But understanding requires listening and engaging, and listening doesn't seem to be your strong point, hence you do not directly engage the debate.

As far as "hostile" goes, I can cut and paste some lovely stuff off this forum...which seems to be perfectly within everyone's comfort zone. And it's pretty scary stuff.

[Marnie]

Homophobe? Who's a homophobe? Hmmmm? Freshcutgrass (what kind of grass, I wonder? Crab, perhaps) needs to read Jude, regarding the tactics of false teachers. It's one chapter...he can handle it.

[freshcutgrass]

Ah...ridicule...another fabulous christian trait you learned from jesus?

Maybe if you concentrated on what jesus DID say, rather than what he did NOT say, you may find yourself getting on the right track.

[ayin jade]

Words like

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Whoever practices sin is the slave of sin.

[Guest shiloh357]

Leviticus 18:22 You shall not lie with mankind as with womankind. It is abomination to God.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lies with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be on them.

Seems clear that is homosexuality. Of course, many try and deny that to justify a sinful lifestyle.

Really...there's no need to repeat the same passages...I know them well...and you just posted them...save the space.

"Seems clear that is homosexuality."

The only thing that is clear, is you have no understanding of scripture.

Neither of these verses in Leviticus refer to homosexuals but to heterosexuals who took part in fertility rituals in order to guarantee good crops and healthy flocks....stuff of that nature. No hint at sexual orientation or homosexuality is even implied. The word abomination in Leviticus was used for anything that was considered to be religiously unclean or associated with idol worship.

Your problem is not understanding the context of the passages as they pertained to the lifestyle of the time in which they took place. and who they are directed at. You are completely ignorant of their meanings. Not surprising though, as most christians have almost no real knowledge of the old testiment.

Like I said before, if you are so enamoured with Leviticus, then by all means stop this hypocritical selective use of it to condemn and reject people, and follow ALL it's laws yourself....have fun.

The only one demonstrating ignorance is you, freshcut. It is clear that you have no skill in true hermeneutics.

First of all, there is nothing in the context that requires us to understand this as a reference to fertility rituals. No mention is made of fertility rituals, for one. God gives us an entire list of sexual encounters which he says that we are to avoid. Not only sexual encounters but he also tells us that we are not even to look upon the nakedness of someone who is not our spouse. This has nothing to do "fertility rites."

But specifically, v. 22 says in Hebrew ,"v'et zakhar lo tish-kahv mish-k'vei ishah to-ei-vah hiv."

The word tish-kahv comes from the root "shakahv" and is understood throughout the Old Testament as referring to sexual relations. In other contexts, it can refer to sleep, or someone who is deseased and has been laid to rest. But for OUR purposes here, the context is clearly a reference to sexual relations, and it is used numerous times in that sense. The context of THIS passage demands we understand it as sexual relations.

God is commanding against men having sexual relations with other men as if those other men were women. You would have to commit intellectual suicide to see it any other way. Even someone with an eigth grade education can understand the meaning here.

As for Leb. 20:13, the same word is used again. We see that the reference pertains to sexual relations between those of the same sex. It does not have to mention "orientation." God commands against the act, period. It would also stand to reason that if God abhores the act, then abhores the desires that prompted the act in the first place.

Abomination, or "to-eivah," refers to anything that God considers disgusting and is not limited to ritual uncleanness or idolatry. All sin is an abomination to God. All sin whether it be lying, stealing adultery, coveteousness, homosexuality, all of it is an abhorence to God and he hates all of it in no uncertain terms.

The person who does not understand the OT is you.

[Marnie]

Ah...ridicule...another fabulous christian trait you learned from jesus?

Maybe if you concentrated on what jesus DID say, rather than what he did NOT say, you may find yourself getting on the right track.

I am illustrating absurdity by being absurd. Anybody that comes into a Christian forum, who is obviously pro-gay, has got have a gigantic target drawn on their chest! C'mon dude. I wouldn't waste my time with you. Now if you want to engage me, there is a thread on libertarianism you might be interested in. Right AK? Think we can handle him?

Beam me up, Scotty.

[nebula]

Jesus is quoted as quoting only one passage from Leviticus: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (19:18). Jesus used Leviticus to teach love. Jesus never condemned homosexuals or even mentioned anything that could be taken as a reference to sexual orientation.

Ah yes - the "Jesus never said it was wrong," argument.

Well, Jesus never said anything about racism, animal rights, environmentalism, child molestation, and spousal abuse either. Does that make these activities OK then?

If you have been led to misuse Leviticus and other parts of the bible in order to condemn and hate and reject people, you are on the wrong path.

The way you are ignoring Ayin Jade's question about Jesus, that is a clear warning sign that you are not a Christian. That would mean you don't have God's understanding of sin.

Sin is something to be repented of, not justified.

Have you ever read Jesus words, "Go and sin no more."?

But people have used the Bible to justify slavery in the past. I'm not suprised that you would do the same for homsexuality. It just shows that people can get what they want out of anything.

But you have to be listening to the Spirit of God!

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah has exactly ZERO to do with homosexuality. People who quote this as being so, are people who obviously don't understand that story at all.

You say that - what is your evidence to the contrary?