An Infallible Bible?

[Copper Scroll]

So basically you are a non-believer and are trying to convince everyone else around you to become one also. Basically everyone should be convinced by you that God did not give to mankind any knowledge of himself that we can trust.

I don't think this is a fair assessment. I would argue that a person can believe in the redemptive quality of the Jesus' life, death, and resurrection but disagree with the factuality of other parts of the Bible. I would also argue that it is not the factuality of certain events portrayed in the Bible that is important. What is important is how we react to them--that we react with faith and with a commitment to righteousness.

I also notice you have no real basic understanding of the old testament contents at all because if ye did then you would know the flow and contents of it which I have yet to detect in any of your post.

You can't notice what I don't have. You can assume that I don't have it... and this is an unnecessary assumption. I know that many of the books "flow" into the next. I just made a mix cd of Miles Davis recordings. I ordered the tracks chronologically. It begins with tracks recorded in 1955 and ends with tracks recorded in 1974. There is a "flow" there because Miles' style of music evolved over that period of time. But it doesn't change the fact that "Nature Boy" was recorded in 1955 using the musical vocabulary of that day and "Mtume" was recorded in 1974 with a completely different musical vocabulary. Miles idea of what constituted good music changed over that period of time. Is it inconceivable that the God-concepts of God's followers also changed over the many, many years in which the books of the Bible were written?

The knowledge in which you keep throwing out is not scripture based but muddled new age thinking that will always under mind the things of God.

I'm just one confused fool--like everybody else. I can't undermine the things of God.

So I worry whether you are concentrating to much on the superficial features and factuality of you own new age thinking above having the mind of Christ.

What's "new age"? What's "the mind of Christ"?

Praying for you

Thanks.

[Copper Scroll]

You said you believe Jesus personifies absolute truth. I cannot argue with that. I believe Jesus to be absolute truth. The problem to me is, if you do not believe the written word is absolute truth, how do you know what portions are correct? For instance, you think the Old Testament is un-Christlike. How do you know it is the Old Testament that is wrong and not the New Testament?

Taken as a whole, the Bible seems to present a relatively simple thesis. We call this thesis the Gospel. But if the individual books are taken individually, some of them present different theses--some of these contradict the Gospel (to my mind). Notions that appear in conflict with the Gospel I would owe to the incomplete or imperfect perspective of the author. But even this does not mean that nothing can be learned from these books. Let's say someone said "God is a football coach." My first reaction would be "Well, that's not really true." But perhaps there is some truth in it. God in some ways is very much like a football coach. Perhaps the author did mean what he said literally. Maybe he did and was just slightly mistaken. We can speculate on these issues, but to me they don't matter all that much, because what is important is what is learned from the statement--how I react to the statement. Though the statement was not literally true, I did learn something about God from it. For this reason, I don't go through the Bible looking for errors. I go with an open mind to learn something--to be inspired.

Just because you do not think God would act the way the Bible says he did in the Old Testament, doesn't mean he didn't.

Agreed.

If there were a written record of all of those events, someone might call it a paradigm shift, however, it was really the plan of God from the very beginning.

But through all of those events, would you agree that our view of God--God concept--changed? Israel saw God as a nationalist, and then Jesus came and said God is not a nationalist--for example?

I do not reject nationalism.

But you are not so nationalistic that you would advocate the killing of the babies of your nation's enemies--would you?

I have no problem believieving that God ordered the destruction of men, women and children that lived in Canaan, any more than I have trouble believing God sends those that reject his son to burn forever in the lake of fire. He destroyed them because of their wickedness and dispossesed them. Isreal inherited their land, not because they were righteous, but because the Canaanites were wicked. I believe all of these stories to be literally, and factually true.

See the above question. Also, if this event happened today you would think it's alright?

It is my hope you will re-think your position on the innerency of scripture. Go back and re-read the Bible from start to finish, and see the plan of God being fulfilled.

I think I'll take this advice. Thank you.

[Guest torahdelight]

I am so happy that G-d is tugging at your heart to get you to seek the truth. These Bible verses came to my heart. I pray that G-d would speak to your heart with His Infallible WORD.

In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with G-d, and the WORD was G-d. John 1:1

All Scripture is given by inspiration of G-d, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 2 Timothy 16.

Jesus is the WORD, therefore, our Saviour cannot tell a lie.

In Timothy, isn't it amazing that G-d reminds us that His love letter, the Bible, is inspired by Him.

May this message be one of hope for you and may you have a blessed day today as G-d draws you closer to Him.

[RustyAngeL]

if u are too lazy to read.....just do what i do......stick to the truth u know and be stubborn about letting anyone convince u otherwise

LOL Peaches..I take the bible as fact by faith. The bible says we walk by faith not by sight. It's our faith that saves. Our salvation is fact...it's real. So are the stories in the bible. Again it's all about faith.

[eric]

Hi all, sorry I'm a bit late joining this thread, but I have had too much on mymind to do much posting.

However I did pick up one point about Jesus being the word.

Apart from the gospel of John, 1st chapter, where it has already been stated that you can replace the "word" with Jesus, if you like to read Rev.19: 11-14 you will also find that Jesus is undoubtably the "word", written by the same apostle.

Hope this helps,

eric.

Edited February 13, 2006 by eric

[Openly Curious]

...The scroll/word (as referred to in Hebrews 10) is the old covenant that was given unto the children of Israel as you well know.

The old covenant was a covenant that the children of Israel had agreed to enter into with God himself. ...

Thank you for this summary.

I see from your summary that "word" has many different, usually overlapping meanings. "Word" is the Pentateuch, is the Bible, is God/Jesus, is Truth, is the Covenant... none of these are absolute synonyms,

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***Why do they have to be synonyms to be the truth God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are not synonyms either but they are the one true God.***

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but I do recognize that they overlap. God is Truth, but God is more than that--God is also Love and God is also an agent.

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***God is also a God of wrath which you seem to not like that side of His nature in the Old Testament. I do see that you do recogonize the overshadowing truths but yet you still refuse to accept them as such.***

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So there is not a complete and perfect alignment there between those two concepts, God and Truth--but a significant overlap (The Word was with God and the Word was God).

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***"Jesus said, I am the way the truth and the life and no man cometh to the Father but by me" (John 14:6). You seem to have no conception of the Jehovah God of the Old Testament (in my assumption).***

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God's Truth is also in the Covenant, because God keeps God's promises--truly.

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***Once again you see the truth but want to reject and debate it. ??????***

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But again, there is not a complete and perfect alignment between those two concepts, because the Truth extends beyond the Covenant.

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***Again, why must their be this perfect alignment as you say for it to be truth?????***

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The Truth is also revealed to prophets after the Covenant. Now, the Covenant is contained in the Pentateuch, but again--no complete and perfect alignment because the Pentateuch contains more than just the Covenant.

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***Same old line but why, must there be that alignment?***

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Also, we are supposed to view the Old Testament in light of the New Testament. We say that the Old Testament is not Truth/Word alone.

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***It is the the truth/word alone and at the same time the Old Covenant hadn't been fulfilled. But Jesus Christ in the fullness of time did in fact come into this world and did the God of the Old Testament will and shed His blood for the sins of mankind reconciling the world back to right relationship with the Father. You see God had made a law under the Old Covenant that without the shedding of blood there would be no remission of sins. That's why they had the animal sacrifices under the Old covenant until the time when Jesus would come and shed His own blood once and for all.***

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Why do we expect both the Old and New to frame Truth/Word by themselves--especially in light of Jesus' critique of the Law. He indicates that there is a spirit within, intent behind, principle underlying the Law the Jews of his time we missing

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***I notice the "we missing" in your post which has led me out of curiosity to ask, are you yourself a Jewish person?***

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because they were concentrating too much on the superficial features of the Law itself.

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***Again, here I see your incredible lack in knowing the scriptures in your references to Jesus's comments toward the law.***

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I worry whether the Church is concentrating too much on the literal factuality of the superficial features of the Bible.

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***What exactly do you mean when you say the "literal factuality of the superficial features" of the Bible (nice to see you using the word "Bible" now in referencing God Word).***

Openly Curious

Edited February 13, 2006 by Openly Curious

[Copper Scroll]

I see from your summary that "word" has many different, usually overlapping meanings. "Word" is the Pentateuch, is the Bible, is God/Jesus, is Truth, is the Covenant... none of these are absolute synonyms,

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***Why do they have to be synonyms to be the truth God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are not synonyms either but they are the one true God.***

They would have to be synonyms in order for you to replace one word for the other in any and every context. I've encountered many posters who want to draw an equation between Jesus and the Bible based on an equation between Jesus and WORD and another equation between WORD and the Bible. To simplify this they say, essentially:

Jesus = WORD and

WORD = Bible, so

Jesus = Bible.

I disagree, because none of these words are absolute synonyms. They share meanings (their meanings overlap enough for one to say "Jesus is the WORD") but they cannot be interchanged so easily. I can't say Jesus is sitting on my coffee table just because the Bible is on the coffee table. Everytime you read the word "word" in the Bible, it doesn't mean the same thing. I would argue further that when you read the word "word" in the Bible, it is not referring to itself as the compilation we now have and call "Bible". It either refers to the Absolute Truth that is God (WORD) or it refers to previous or current written or spoken word. Now, when these words transmit Absolute Truth (WORD)--again--their meanings overlap, but they are not absolute synonyms. No written or spoken word can be God in itself. Language can only indicate ideas and reality. Words are not in themselves the ideas or the reality.

Why do we expect both the Old and New to frame Truth/Word by themselves--especially in light of Jesus' critique of the Law. He indicates that there is a spirit within, intent behind, principle underlying the Law the Jews of his time we missing

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***I notice the "we missing" in your post which has led me out of curiosity to ask, are you yourself a Jewish person?***

Actually, "we missing" is a typo. I meant "were missing".

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because they were concentrating too much on the superficial features of the Law itself.

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***Again, here I see your incredible lack in knowing the scriptures in your references to Jesus's comments toward the law.***

Just a couple examples:

Matthew 23:23-26:

23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices

Edited February 13, 2006 by Copper Scroll

[EricH]

I see from your summary that "word" has many different, usually overlapping meanings. "Word" is the Pentateuch, is the Bible, is God/Jesus, is Truth, is the Covenant... none of these are absolute synonyms,

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

***Why do they have to be synonyms to be the truth God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are not synonyms either but they are the one true God.***

They would have to be synonyms in order for you to replace one word for the other in any and every context. I've encountered many posters who want to draw an equation between Jesus and the Bible based on an equation between Jesus and WORD and another equation between WORD and the Bible. To simplify this they say, essentially:

Jesus = WORD and

WORD = Bible, so

Jesus = Bible.

I disagree, because none of these words are absolute synonyms. They share meanings (their meanings overlap enough for one to say "Jesus is the WORD") but they cannot be interchanged so easily. I can't say Jesus is sitting on my coffee table just because the Bible is on the coffee table. Everytime you read the word "word" in the Bible, it doesn't mean the same thing. I would argue further that when you read the word "word" in the Bible, it is not referring to itself as the compilation we now have and call "Bible". It either refers to the Absolute Truth that is God (WORD) or it refers to previous or current written or spoken word. Now, when these words transmit Absolute Truth (WORD)--again--their meanings overlap, but they are not absolute synonyms. No written or spoken word can be God in itself. Language can only indicate ideas and reality. Words are not in themselves the ideas or the reality.

Why do we expect both the Old and New to frame Truth/Word by themselves--especially in light of Jesus' critique of the Law. He indicates that there is a spirit within, intent behind, principle underlying the Law the Jews of his time we missing

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

***I notice the "we missing" in your post which has led me out of curiosity to ask, are you yourself a Jewish person?***

Actually, "we missing" is a typo. I meant "were missing".

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

because they were concentrating too much on the superficial features of the Law itself.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

***Again, here I see your incredible lack in knowing the scriptures in your references to Jesus's comments toward the law.***

Just a couple examples:

Matthew 23:23-26:

23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices