An Infallible Bible?

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Copper,

I would venture to say that it does really matter if there is any Truth to the stories in the Bible. It really does matter if God parted the Red Sea so the Hebrews could escape Egyptians. It really does matter that Eve was disobedient and denied Gods Word thereby tempting her Husband to question God as well. With both of them falling from Relationship with God as the consequence.

It matters very much IMO that the Bible hold Historical and acurate weight. If we begin to question Gods Word? Do we not begin to question God Himself? Is this not what Adam and Eve did that started the very need for God to come in the Flesh and set the whole ball of wax straight? In essence, if we cannot believe God to be the God who parted the Red Sea or knocked down the walls of Jericho? How can we believe Him for our Salvation?

What is important is the universal truth that can be drawn from the stories.

What is this Universal Truth?

Peace,

Dave

Edited February 1, 2006 by Dr. Luke

[EricH]

The minute we start doubting the WORD OF GOD and saying HE GAVE US A FALLIBLE BIBLE you might as well give it all up. Everything crumbles after that. We can decide what is true and what is not and we can do that to suit our own sinful needs, hence homosexuals saying they are Christian, Gap theories and all sorts of twisted teaching.

Our LDS friend will undoubtedly talk about the versions of the bible and obviously there are errors in some and admitedly some poor translations but this is mans fault not Gods. He gave us a perfect Greek text and man has translated that. MAN IS FALLIBLE NOT GOD.

This doesn't make much sense to me. If translations could be errant, why would you deem the original writings inerrant? You pretend that an angel came down and wrote the Bible in a single sitting... in Greek. I hope most will agree that this is not what happened.

My faith is not based on the purity of the book. The WORD the bible refers to is not the bible itself.

So if you cannot trust what is written in the book, in what do you base your faith? How do you know in what to have faith?

[Copper Scroll]

It matters very much IMO that the Bible hold Historical and acurate weight. If we begin to question Gods Word? Do we not begin to question God Himself? Is this not what Adam and Eve did that started the very need for God to come in the Flesh and set the whole ball of wax straight? In essence, if we cannot believe God to be the God who parted the Red Sea or knocked down the walls of Jericho? How can we believe Him for our Salvation?

Thank you for a thoughtful and patient response. I don't propose the questioning of God's Word. I propose being cognizant of the fact that God's Word has been relayed to us by men who lived a long time ago and then another group of men who compiled the writings and made the Bible... and then another group of men who translated in into various languages. I propose not turning a blind eye to the Bible's historical and cultural contexts. Those contexts suggest to me that the people who wrote the Bible were not interested in 100% factuality the way historians and journalists operate today. They were interested in passing on truth that transcends historical events--truth that can be applied to anyone's life. That's what I meant by "universal truth"...

What is important is the universal truth that can be drawn from the stories.

What is this Universal Truth?

... not factuality.

Edited February 1, 2006 by Copper Scroll

[Copper Scroll]

So if you cannot trust what is written in the book, in what do you base your faith? How do you know in what to have faith?

I'm not saying that the Bible lies. We can trust the Bible, but in order to fully understand it we must put it in context. Preachers always put certain passages in context when they give sermons. No one accuses them of trying to add to the Bible or trying to clarify something in the Bible and implying that the Bible is unclear as it is.

I base my faith in God, in Jesus, who btw offended local religious authorities by trying to draw universal truth from the Jewish law. I feel often that we are as guilty as the Pharisees--following the law to the letter while ignorant of the meaning at the core of the law.

[Openly Curious]

The minute we start doubting the WORD OF GOD and saying HE GAVE US A FALLIBLE BIBLE you might as well give it all up. Everything crumbles after that. We can decide what is true and what is not and we can do that to suit our own sinful needs, hence homosexuals saying they are Christian, Gap theories and all sorts of twisted teaching.

Our LDS friend will undoubtedly talk about the versions of the bible and obviously there are errors in some and admitedly some poor translations but this is mans fault not Gods. He gave us a perfect Greek text and man has translated that. MAN IS FALLIBLE NOT GOD.

This doesn't make much sense to me. If translations could be errant, why would you deem the original writings inerrant? You pretend that an angel came down and wrote the Bible in a single sitting... in Greek. I hope most will agree that this is not what happened.

My faith is not based on the purity of the book. The WORD the bible refers to is not the bible itself.

No, but the WORD says, that JESUS was the WORD from the beginning.

Also, in Hebrews 10:7 says, "Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me) to do thy will, O God." To have faith in Jesus is to have faith in His word for they are the same. How can one be a disciple a follower of Christ without the word it is impossible.

Openly Curious

[EricH]

So if you cannot trust what is written in the book, in what do you base your faith? How do you know in what to have faith?

I'm not saying that the Bible lies. We can trust the Bible, but in order to fully understand it we must put it in context. Preachers always put certain passages in context when they give sermons. No one accuses them of trying to add to the Bible or trying to clarify something in the Bible and implying that the Bible is unclear as it is.

I base my faith in God, in Jesus, who btw offended local religious authorities by trying to draw universal truth from the Jewish law. I feel often that we are as guilty as the Pharisees--following the law to the letter while ignorant of the meaning at the core of the law.

You won't get an argument regarding the importance of context (both historical and immediate) in finding out what a text means. I guess I am just not getting the point you are trying to make here. It seems like you are saying the following:

1. The Bible is not inerrant

2. Despite this, it can be trusted

3. You faith is in God and Jesus

4. This faith is based on an understanding of scripture that is different than most hold

5. This different understanding is based in filtering the Bible through context

Is this what you are saying?

[EricH]

I think we will see these attacks over and over.

I don't understand why secular, scholarly critiques of the Bible should necessarily be considered attacks. So what if the stories are "fabricated". I don't think the original writers or those who might have handed down the stories orally functioned in the way we know modern historians function. Their purpose in telling/writing the stories was to convey a truth that transcends individual events. So the literal, verbatim truth of the individual events told in the stories is not important. What is important is the universal truth that can be drawn from the stories.

How can the truth that is behind the story be assertained apart from understanding the literal event??

[Copper Scroll]

My faith is not based on the purity of the book. The WORD the bible refers to is not the bible itself.

No, but the WORD says, that JESUS was the WORD from the beginning.

Here, you seem to be equating the WORD with the Bible.

[EricH]

My faith is not based on the purity of the book. The WORD the bible refers to is not the bible itself.

No, but the WORD says, that JESUS was the WORD from the beginning.

Here, you seem to be equating the WORD with the Bible.

It depends on the context of the passage being quoted. The term "word" can refer wither to scripture, or to the Living Word, Jesus. Context tells us which the author intended

[Copper Scroll]

So if you cannot trust what is written in the book, in what do you base your faith? How do you know in what to have faith?

I'm not saying that the Bible lies. We can trust the Bible, but in order to fully understand it we must put it in context.

You won't get an argument regarding the importance of context (both historical and immediate) in finding out what a text means. I guess I am just not getting the point you are trying to make here. It seems like you are saying the following:

1. The Bible is not inerrant

2. Despite this, it can be trusted

3. You faith is in God and Jesus

4. This faith is based on an understanding of scripture that is different than most hold

5. This different understanding is based in filtering the Bible through context

Is this what you are saying?

I agree with #1. The Bible is a collection of writings, written by men. I will not deny their divine inspiration, but we all know that anything "man" touches is infused with sin. There is nothing that we can say or write that is infallible.

For #2, I am not sure what you mean by "trusted". It can't be trusted as a History textbook. It can be trusted as a means to or aid in finding God or strengthening one's relationship with God.

#3... Yes, I'm all about One God who came in flesh as Jesus and taught us how to live.

I'm not sure what #4 is saying. I think it's saying that my attitude toward the Bible is deviant. This may be true, I'm not entirely sure. But I think the basis for my faith is the same as for most Christians.

#5... I don't know about filtering. I would say illuminating or clarifying.

How can the truth that is behind the story be assertained apart from understanding the literal event??

An event doesn't have to be literally true in order for someone to gain truth from it. It seems crass to compare Bible stories to fairy tales but... We don't accept fairy tales as literally true, but they all have a moral. The same applies to Jesus' parables.

Thank you for your response.