Jesus

[Arthur Durnan]

Good grief and Hallelujah, everybody's favorite "atheist" friend is evidently BACK from his imperative I.I.O. (InterGalactic Investigative Odyssey), yes? I was especially interested in Charon. I know it was extremely cold there. You were in my thots. In nine years, America will discover its treasures. Did you search it out to any great extent? Where next in your quest to prove the Creator-God's non-existence? Ross 154 or 61 Cygni? I LOVE "atheists." They're so very scrutable. Far from being any masters of their domain, self-concocted "atheists" are much rather the premier Hucksters of their Times. They are much like the famous Peter Cook/Dudley Moore sketch "One Leg Too Few," about a one-legged man applying for the job of Tarzan - "a role for which two legs would seem to be the minimum requirement." Why is it that some kind folk of "atheistic" stripe who know the least re the created order tend to know it the loudest? Next departure from Cape Canaveral?

http://www.arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[willsmom]

Matt,

I have been reading your post and I just want to say to you that Jesus Christ did exsist. There is probably nothing I can say to convince you but I pray that you at least be open to fact that He is the almighty.

You seem to be searching through science to find the answers that only God can give you.

I am not judging you only praying for you.

Taste and See that the Lord is good.

I am very curious about one thing. Do you believe there is a Satan?

[Leonard]

Hmmm. Where are you convinced 'science contradicts the Bible?' If science has 'only theory'--be it ever so refined a theory--then science cannot, in the strictest sense 'contradict' anything! It might 'conflict,' but you put a greater load of meaning into it than the word 'theory' itself can bear. This might prove an interesting direction for conversation, my boy, I'm very pleased you brought it up!

Miracles for one.....that contradicts the science. I see your point with theory, we can keep going with theory after theory to when we see that miracles are reality. But what if we see at the choatic lvl of quantum physics that a quantum shift happens and miracles have been nothing but spontaneous subatomic splits between matter and antimatter, a realocation of energy if you will. You can still write God into it because he is this infinite being, at that point, he'll just work at lower levels and we'll put him somewhere else we can't see. It's a never ended justification.

Point, the Sun use to revolve around the Earth. Now, sure that isn't in the Bible per se, but you were killed my priest for saying it because it contradicted what they knew and what they felt the Bible represented. Now we don't die for that thought, we find out the Earth revolves around the Sun and Viola! I'm so glad I live in the age of free-thought, well, actually a country that still promotes it.

Another thing to think about his how many transitional fossils we'll need to win over Christians to the idea of Evolution. We can have transitional fossils but then they want the transitions between those. We find them, then they want the transitions between those and it'll continue like that until we notice that a knee-jerk reaction to someone's fundamental belief system is taking place so that they "can" survive into an eternal life. We are talking survival here really......should be interesting but I'd like to keep this discussion on course.

matt

AD SERIATAM: Paragraph 1. Can't you see that your unseen and theorized 'quantum soup' is subject to the same reductio ad absurdum that you are so uncomfortable with when the theists apply it: "Ooh! The mysterious new 'quanta' at an ever deeper level--that's what explains it!" Methinks thou hast the shoe on the wrong foot!

Paragraph 2. Well, since this is not (as even you concede) taught in the Bible, why bring it up here? Because it is a convenient red herring. Well, nonetheless, just to demonstrate how things get twisted about, and ill-taught at our colleges today, I shall take it up. How many people actually died for believing the earth revolved around the sun? I have not been able to find a single record of such an occurance, although to hear secularist professors talk about it, it must have been a daily occurance all over Europe! And before you bring up Galileo, (who of course was not killed, but suffered badly for his views) study what actually happened and why; if you bring it up without really knowing your history, you will lose that argument with me rather embarassingly! Just food for thought: Nicolas Copernicus was ALREADY teaching the Copernican model, BEFORE Galileo. Why wasn't Copernicus prosecuted, if the Church was simply out to suppress such a view? Why did Galileo's prosecution become the cause celeb' amongst the secularist scholars, and why do they hide the fact that Copernicus was NOT prosecuted? Do you think maybe they've sold you a bill of goods? (Hint. Hint.)

Paragraph 3. The brilliant Stephen J. Gould and other great scholars in the American Humanist Society (of which I believe he was President, for a long while) used to hold debates against creationist scientists at universities (a pretty friendly environment for Gould, and pretty hostile to creationists!) around America. Unfortunately Gould and his compatriots KEPT LOSING THE DEBATES! They couldn't produce any true 'transitional forms' that would stand up to review in the academic debating environment. It got sooooo embarassing that Gould actually directed the society not to debate the creationists anymore, because the evolutionists always lost! If Harvard's Gould and the best secularists of the finest universities can't come up with legitimate transitional forms and you can, you need to break to them the amazing news that you know where there are lots and lots of them!!! I assure you, you will have a tremendous career as an academic, and make a LOT of money! You are being fed bilge water, while being told it's truffles!

Edited January 25, 2006 by Leonard

[Ovedya]

Matt,

I have been reading your post and I just want to say to you that Jesus Christ did exsist. There is probably nothing I can say to convince you but I pray that you at least be open to fact that He is the almighty.

You seem to be searching through science to find the answers that only God can give you.

I am not judging you only praying for you.

Taste and See that the Lord is good.

I am very curious about one thing. Do you believe there is a Satan?

There wouldn't be a satan without Christianity so no, I don't believe in Satan, or demons, or SIN, or faith, or repentance, or angels, or souls, or the Supernatural in general.

matt

Then why are you here, Matt?

Trying to show us ignorant Christians a thing or two, perhaps? Trying to educate this bunch of backwater illiterate "myth believers"?

[Ovedya]

BTW: I'm still waiting for an answer to my question about the pursuit of the divine.

[Ovedya]

Matt,

I have been reading your post and I just want to say to you that Jesus Christ did exsist. There is probably nothing I can say to convince you but I pray that you at least be open to fact that He is the almighty.

You seem to be searching through science to find the answers that only God can give you.

I am not judging you only praying for you.

Taste and See that the Lord is good.

I am very curious about one thing. Do you believe there is a Satan?

There wouldn't be a satan without Christianity so no, I don't believe in Satan, or demons, or SIN, or faith, or repentance, or angels, or souls, or the Supernatural in general.

matt

Demonize me too? Cause I care, and why I'm here was something different a couple of weeks ago.

matt

Then why are you here, Matt?

Trying to show us ignorant Christians a thing or two, perhaps? Trying to educate this bunch of backwater illiterate "myth believers"?

You bring it on yourself by accusing Christians of being arrogant for what we believe.

Why do you care if a bunch of people chose to live their lives according to a certain vision?

Again, what is your purpose here?

[Ovedya]

There are a lot of "yes men" out there, aren't there?

On both sides...

So how is your link anymore convincing than answersingenesis, for example?

Ok, let's convolute the issue. I don't go somewhere on Sundays and have my ego stroked, that's the difference. I don't go to boards where I'm in good company, there's another. I go out and spread what I know being a former Christian. I know there are hardheads on both sides, that's honestly one of the least original things I've ever heard.

So what should we do with your post? Take it that we can't ever think outside of ourselves and die that way? I know better.

matt

Which is more limited, accepting the truth of the existence of God and spending one's life in pursuit of the divine, or limiting one's own scope of knowledg and understanding to a world that's going to burn in the end anyway?

I'm a former atheist, by the way, so don't bother trying to tell me how ignorant I am. I spent the better part of 20 years trying to fill myself with knowledge, science, and various other things in the attempt at stroking an ego that could never be satisfied.

Christianity is far from an ego stroke, my friend. In fact, it's brough my pride down to a level that I could never have understood while I was an atheist, and caused me to pursue something that is far greater than myself. That is why I go to church on Sundays, and that is why I have been on Worthy for the past 3 years.

You find something wrong with the pursuit of the divine?

Absolutely wrong. The fact that it's as baseless as every religion before it and as baseless as you consider every religion around you that isn't yours. The fact that you serve a religion that is 1/300th of the worlds documented religions and feel it's the right ONE. It's beyond me to think that. It's arrogant for you to even assume you are the right one, GOING TO HEAVEN, around so many that disagree. Sunday's are an ego boost, I'd encourage you to reread my post again. You don't see people shake their heads no to the pastor on Sundays, he's just feeding them the knowledge that they chose right, and are right, and will be right. Science doesn't do that and it's effect our lives way more than religion in just 200 years! Put down the book, and open another.

matt

HERE IT IS AGAIN.

matt

A paragraph starting with "Absolutely wrong" is not an answer. Essentially all you've done is to state your opinion. There is no answer to the question of why you find something wrong with the pursuit of the divine.

[Inti]

You bring it on yourself by accusing Christians of being arrogant for what we believe.

Oh please explain to everyone about Balaam and his talking donkey and try to keep a straight face. Try to include examples on how the donkey has a voice box similar to a humans that allows it to create complex sounds at will.

Please.

[nebula]

You know Matt, I've found it rather interesting how you've avoided my question. . . .

Actually I got lost in another thread and was busy through-out the day in my life......

I do know, but your patronizing makes me not care...

Thanks anyway for accusing. Boost the ego a bit doesn't it? Good for you....good for you.....

matt

The games sceptics play. . . .

Considering that you had the time to respond very well to other people's posts, and then instead of answering the question went on the attack when confronted on this -

It makes the casual observer believe that indeed you do not have an answer to this.

Thanks for boosting my faith that even historians are left with no alternative but that Jesus rose from the dead!

You know what? You believe what you need to believe to believe. It makes you happy.

It's funny that you bring this up....

matt

You really don't have an answer to the challenge, do you?

I mean, why else would you keep responding this way?

If you have an answer as you claim - spit it out!

[WISDOM]

I don't know that he's reaching out, I know that's something I've heard from many Christians and it's suppose to make me closer or feel something in the mind I might attribute to the Lord more quickly having heard that from you.

I am constantly seeking. It's the beauty of theory. We don't have the answers so we keep looking. You have your Bible and stop there when it comes to theological issues or to when something like science contradicts the Bible. That whole stopping point would just annoy me, and it did.

Use to be a Christian(I know......you weren't ever really one, well, you might not be either) and I did all of the rituals that make it seem the magical process. It just doesn't fit the real world. Meanwhile, it's telling me not to worry about this world. When, as far as I can see, this is the only world.

About your bones....

I'm in the middle of talking to Artsylady about the origins of the gospels and them all being made after Jesus died. So in between Jesus' death and the writing of the Bible there was some sensationalism going on, which was popular at the time. We still like the Enquirer. I'd encourage you to join us there on our point for point discussion.

About me being attacked, it's happened hear a few times so I might have a preconception built that's unjustified on the masses. I apologize.

I look forward to your comments.

matt

I appreciate your honest response,my friend. It's through clear, concise discussion that we find answers, or at least attempt to. Although not always, from time to time I will join in on these topics of discussions (but not as much as I use to in the past).

Again thank you, and honestly, there's no apology needed. You did nothing offensive. We will dialogue off/on. I'll still see ya in Heaven!

Edited January 25, 2006 by WISDOM