1 Samuel 15:3 - God orders people to kill babies

[ayin jade]

So we could kill all non-christians and God would still be happy and you could still get into Heaven and you would be alright. Sounds like the Bible COULD BE the best CHEERLEADER ever devised.

matt

Where have I or anyone ever said this was right? Where did God say it in His word?

I agonize over those who are lost. So do most on this board. We are not rejoicing that you are lost and on your way to someplace quite unpleasant. We dont spend all this time on the boards or in chat because we are bored. We actively long to bring people to Him, to lead them away from the road to hell.

You came here claiming to be seeking, yet you always seem to be mocking. Have you been here before under another name perhaps?

[ayin jade]

Well to be honest, I dont believe in your response above either, that they were innocent and God is "guilty".

Could you go further for that matter and say that the children were innocent and that God is innocent?

matt

Romans 3:10-12 as it is written: "There is none righteous, no not one; there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God." "They are all gone out of the way, they have together become unprofitable, there is none that does good, no, not one."

This is also repeatedly expressed in the OT, in Psalms. Mankind is all guilty.

God is all righteous and holy.

[ayin jade]

The simple question is: Can this be the same God as the God of the New Testament? Can this be the same God who said, 'love your neighbor as your self, do good to your enemies, and pray for those who despitefully use you....'?

Yes, He is the same God. God shows love and mercy in the OT, and shows righteous judgment in the NT.

Lets just be honest about this. If you wrong me, should your child be imprisoned or killed for your crime, oh say, 20 years from now?

You will undoubtedly say, "No!"

Then I will ask, "Why was a 400 year old crime even mentioned, if the real issue, as you say, was sins of the contemporary generation?

You are comparing apples and oranges. Man versus the Lord. You are judging the Lord on human standards, not on the standards of God.

[ayin jade]

Romans 3:10-12 as it is written: "There is none righteous, no not one; there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God." "They are all gone out of the way, they have together become unprofitable, there is none that does good, no, not one."

This is also repeatedly expressed in the OT, in Psalms. Mankind is all guilty.

God is all righteous and holy.

So the moral of the story is?

Its ok for Israel to kill Amalekite babies, but its a sin for Amalekites to kill Amalekite babies.

Its ok for Israel to enslave and rape Hitite(and all the other "ites") women, but its a sin for Hitites(and other "ites") to rape Israeli women, or even marry them consentually.

Gotcha....

Putting words in my mouth (or my post in this case). I never said that kind of thing. The original question was about God.

If Israel did anything against the wishes of the Lord, then Israel is guilty of the sin.

[ayin jade]

How about this?

20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

You give partial quotes. Where is the verse 20 from? Hard to post replies when Im not even sure which passages you are getting quotes from. I prefer to read in context.

[ramar]

First, with regards to the babies...

I don't think that their potential to grow up and repent of their sins, and end up in God's presence in heaven was taken away by killing them. I don't believe that the death of ANY baby would ever prevent him/her from going to heaven, just because repentance was not done. God does not banish us to hell because of our failure to repent; it is because of our CHOICE to not repent - i.e. our choice to not accept Christ as our Saviour.

By that, I mean that we, as adults, who have learned the truth, choose to accept or deny Christ as our salvation. Yes, we must repent of our sins, by trusting that Jesus Christ has cleansed us of them, and accept His gracious gift, and bow down to His grace. But it's not the actual lack of repentance that "kills" us, it's the CHOICE!!

We have learned the truth. But a baby, who obviously has not learned the truth, and has obviously not made the choice to deny Christ, will not be held accountable for being mired in his/her sin. The sin a baby is born with is completely cleansed by Christ's blood, and that baby will not be responsible for any sin until such time as he/she can fully make the choice to follow or not follow Christ.

As with the command from God itself...

God never promised us that things would be easy (He actually promised TOUGH times to His children), so I would not expect that His commands would be easy to comprehend or to obey.

And often, the things asked of us are mere tests of our faith. God does not expect all of His commands to be obeyed, He expects a lot of failures in His testing.

Once in a while, as a matter of fact, He will ALTER His plans and commands if He sees they are fully obeyed. He asked Abraham to do the most difficult thing in the world...to take the life of his only son, a son he waited decades to finally have. Once God saw that Abraham was going to pass His test, He changed His plans.

Look at this as a test if you wish. But also look at it with faith that God knows what He's doing. He sees the whole picture, and sometimes, yes, He does punish seemingly innocent people. But there must be a reason. Maybe (since God sees the future as He sees the present - it's all the same to Him), God knew there was no repentance forthcoming in the people. Or perhaps it was just another case of God wishing to show His glory through humanity (He will use the weak among us to show His strength. He will harden a heart to show His power). Who knows why He would command such a thing. Ours is not to question why...

I simply believe that God knows what He's doing; that there's a great reason for it (which we will learn during an eternity with the Father later); and that, yes, good things can come from what we may see as horrible.

God will CHANGE the world, to REACH the world. Once He sets His mind to a certain will, we can sometimes expect something huge - and seemingly drastic. But there is a purpose. Let's just trust in Him!!

[ayin jade]

Again, I ask, "Is this the same God as the New Testament portrays?"

If yes, how can you explain this apparant hypocrissy?

Can you imagine Jesus saying to his disciples, "Kill these Samaritans. Their parents were idolaters. Bunch of no good dogs deserve to die."

Yet Jesus repeatedly spoke of what happens to sinners. Of the torment they face if they dont repent and turn to the Lord. Jesus said (in Mat 23:33) Serpents! Offspring of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

Revelation speaks about torment and the Lake of Fire. Judgment and condemnation. It is delayed judgment, but it is coming. Is that not the same as the judgments in the OT?

More to the point, both old and new testament speak of salvation and reconciliation to the Lord. The bible speaks of Gods plan for our salvation.

Heb 2:3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;

Isnt the gift of salvation, and the means by which mankind can be saved really the important thing to bring out of the bible?

[ayin jade]

But you just dont get it...

At least according to the passage quoted by the OP, "God" told Israel to kill a bunch of babies and women. In the passage I quoted in Deuteronomy, "God" told Israel to kill all males, and take the women and children as their own to do with as they please.

So is God right "Just because he says so"? i.e God is "good" because he is God and what he says goes?

Or is he "good" because he IS good?

There is a difference. the first, which is apparantly how you believe, states that anything God says is inherently right, even if it seems to contradict itself. If its in the Bible, and the Bible says "God said", then it must be right.

The second says God must at least be subject to his own morality. God can't demand honesty from man, and at the same time be a liar. He can't demand equal judgment from man, and at the same time be a merciless tyrant, as his own word says.

Malachi 3:6

For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

I am not questioning God, but rather the validity of the story in 1 Samuel.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes on him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

How can teh same God say both things, and it not be a contradiction?

Maybe I dont understand what you mean. See, sin is something that is against God, so when someone tries to say God sins, that isnt possible to me based on the definition of sin. Since we are all subject to His judgment, then for Him to order some killed, and others not killed doesnt puzzle me. He has chosen when that judgment will happen.

You seem to be saying that God cant demand that mankind not kill, then order killing. Yet again you seem to be judging God on human standards. And I certainly am not seeing where He is a liar or a merciless tyrant.

Where you see contradictions, you seem to be making the assumption that God is flawed, instead of recognizing that your own understanding is flawed. I know when I dont understand something in the bible, it is my problem, not Gods problem. It is a time to seek greater understanding rather than blaming God.

[ayin jade]

In I samuel we see a bunch of babies slaughtered for their ancestor's sins. Guess they went to hell too? because you're comparing their deaths to sinners going to hell.

This is now the second time in this thread that you have twisted my words to mean something other than what I wrote. Im beginning to wonder if there is any reason to bother responding to your posts any more.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Let me throw a hardball at you all.

Do you ever contemplate that the 47 million Abortions that this Nation has committed are Judgment for our sins?

What about those 47 Million innocent babies? How is God Just to allow this to happen? Come on now? Answer and gird yourself up like a man Job.

Job