Denominational Division

[IslandRose]

I think what is being asked is this... You say that all those who know Christ in one locale should be one church. But who is to decide the doctrine for that church? Do we then set up a new system of local "popes" who decided what we believe? What if I don't agree with something that thy have decided is doctrine for the church of my city? Am I then an outcast of the only church going?

I am a blood washed, born again, Spirit filled believer and follower of the Way the Truth and the Life. I am also a Baptist. I am a Baptist because I believe that church believes and practices what I feel is the proper teaching of the New Testament as to what a church should be. My best friend is Non-denom. That is her choice. She must follow where she believes the Holy Spirit is leading her. We are not divided in our love for each other or our love for the Lord. We just each go the the church we feel the Lord has led us to.

Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

I think that there are many areas where this verse applies.

[kittylover0991]

At little hard for me to understand after a long day of tests at school, but from what I could pick out, amen!

As for what are saints? We are all saints if we are saved and chose to follow Christ!(Does baptism have anything to do with being a saint? Or is it only salvation for this one?)

As for chosing a church, a church is proper when it is soley based on the true Word of God and nothing else.

The "church" is a called assembly of born again baptized believers, and as beautifully said already, baptist is not a church, neither is methodist, Lutheran, etc. It is that called assembly(called by God by the way) that is the church. Also known as "the local church".

Ok, I can't get over this one:

"When confused sheep start over a cliff, the individual sheep can save himself only by separating from the flock. Perfect unity at such a time can only mean total destruction for all. The wise sheep to save his own hide disaffiliates." Amen FoC!

[Iryssa]

I don't think denominational differences would be such a huge issue if we, as followers of Christ, stopped thinking "how are we better than them" and "how are they wrong," and instead started thinking "how can we serve one another in love?"

[kittylover0991]

Hello Horizoneast,

I see many posts have been written since I left for California, and I agree with much of what has been written. I believe the church of the Lord Jesus Christ has members in it that come from all different denominations: Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Pentecostal, Wesleyan, etc. We are separated in this world by the doctrinal divisions that we have. There is nothing wrong with that. Sincere Christians can read the same Bible and disagree on the meaning of individual scriptures. That will continue until we are in heaven, and all of the mysteries are cleared up once and for all.

I had read many of the posts in this thread, some critical of doctrines Pentecostals/Charasmatics believe, and was not bothered by them. They were simply sincere doctrinal disagreements. Then I came across a posts attacking "our Pentecostal/Charasmatic friends" and was offended, not because of an attack on a label, but because of an attack on the works of the Holy Spirit. It is one thing to say that one believes speaking in tongues passed away with the early church, as one person stated, and quite another to make fun of speaking in an unknown tongue by calling it something like holy babble. To me, that borders on blasphemy, and that is the only reason I responded at all in this argument.

Hey Butero,

Honestly, I haven't read the last of your post yet, however, I couldn't help but stop and reply when I read this statement. I do, also, believe that tongues passed away with the early church after the bible was complete, however, I would like to discuss what many seem to be offended about. If I were to talk about the falsehood of tongues in the form that tongues is not a random babbling, I would be refering to the fact that I have been informed in the past by many pentacostals the gift is a babbling in a old, dead, ancient language. As Christians, there are many we offend by taking a stand on what the bible says, however, that "babbling" is a term that I have only heard pentacostals use to describe this gift. I mean in no way to offend you, but simply point out something that I have learned. My pastor has even said, "Biblical tongues is not a random babbling as many claim..."

[kittylover0991]

I am unsure how to how to respond to this post because I can't completley agree with you as I disagree with the "current-day" use of tongues, however, I can see where you are coming from. I can also say I would never go so far as to mock the gift of tongues itself as presented in Cortinthians or healings as they are in the bible. Again, however, I completely disagree with their use today..

I guess this is where that evil word(snicker) "tolerance" comes in.. huh?

hmmm... we should defintily be proud of our "denomination".. it means something...

It means a lot to be a Baptist... I know... to me it means a lot when it comes to deal with doctrine and standing firm to it...

These denominations may divide us... yes.... but.. strangely enough... it seems to give this almost "nationalism" in the form of denominations... I am sorry, I just thought of this. I don't know. I am no theologian... but it sure seems thay way....

[kittylover0991]

I think I start with the cat question as it is the easiest one to answer and I also just got back from church(God is so good! He gave me the privaledge of praying with a 6 year old boy!). I have only one cat... she is as big of a pain as she wants to be... just depends upon if you have been ignoring her and if you have a full glass of an unknown liquid that she can take the sheer pleasure of tipping over.. not to mention scrambling to get a towel to clean up said unknown liquid My dad said that we weren't going to look at getting another pet until after we move because we don't know the requirements of the apartment we will probably be renting after my mom retires from teh military this December Wow, I can hear the preacher's voice ringing through my ears as I talk tonight... LOL This man was also my sunday school teacher when I was in the eighth grade. The pastor and his wife are down in Pensacola, Florida looking at possible teachers for the coming school year In otherwords, today has been an interesting day of insight and ... well... let's just say interesting occurances... the guy was singing the "S.M.I.L.E." song as an example of something his mother used to do when he was little cheer him up... it was an interesting night with two powerful message and one interesting lesson on Character, preached by my youth pastor!

As for tongues, as I read you post, I kept trying to formulate an issue that would fit the question, yet, the more I look at it, the more I can only be honest and say that the reason I have that "interpretation" is because one day, someone asked me about tongues, and I didnt' have an answer. This fustrated me because I had never heard of this thing called tongues so I went and asked my pastor.. approxiametely July of last year, my pastor gave me an eight page packet on "the gift of tongues" and I started reading. The whole "babbbling" thing took a bit of time to understand as I was still tryign to even figure out what it was. My pastor probably figured I knew what it was because I asked what the bible said about it. He followed by giving me some information to read that was based on scripture.

That packet made little or no sense to me. Well, it "just so happens", my pastor had been goign through the book of 1st Corinthians for almost a year by that point, and was coming up to the chapters dealign with tongues. He said that Sunday that in two weeks, he would preaching on the subject of tongues... what do you know... it wasnt' for about 5-6 weeks because of wonderful guest speakers, special services(like Father's Day I think it was), etc, until he finally preached that message. Sorry for the long explanation as I am still trying to figure this out in my own mind and also express this in the proper fashion, while only having a hint at the end result, although it seems to be coming quick. In otherwords, please bare with me as I put my thoughts together to understand the view that I have, for whatever the reason is that I have it and figure out the reason it differs between yours. *phew*

*looks back to where I was* oh yes, he finally preached on teh subject of tongues, and he went through it step by step. Before even mentioning much about tongues, he went into the passage after a word of prayer. He went on fora little about how many different authors wrote the bible... how long it was before the bible was fully written.. oh yes, one of his rabbit trails about the accuracy of the KJV(some of my favorite). He then went into the Greek word how the word "perfect", in this text and a few others in the bible, comes from the Greek word that means "complete". He explained as to how "when that which is perfect is come" is refering to the completion of the bible. He also went into how tongues are no longer neccessary, and we have no more need of prophecy as we have the whole bible and the revelations. He also explained how biblical tongues was not a random babbling but a real language, and about how it was maybe two or three in church, and different people have different gifts(please correct me if I am rememebering these wrong as I do not have my bible in front of me) and how when one was speaking in tongues, there should be an interpreter present.

He then followed that, I think, by something dealing with a mirror, how the bible is that mirror that sees right through us... the bible.. the law... shows us our sin.. I can't explain this part real well, but I understand it. I know that when I read a passage dealing with a certain sin and I have a problem with that, the bible shows me my faults and my weak areas that only the Lord can fix. Maybe that is what he was saying, but I would have to pray about that more as he only preached two messages on since he has been here in the past three years.

Well, I can't honestly say I have prayed much about this as until yesterday, I had no true willingness to pray. I would love to sit here and tell you that I have sat for hours praying abotu this subject and the Holy Spirit convicted me.. but I can't. The most I can say is that I know what the bible says, I asked the Lord to show me the truth, and three to five weeks later, my pastor was preaching on the subject of tongues in such detail, I coudln't help but understand what he was saying. Conviction, I guess, is what leads me to believe what I believe. Maybe I am just trusting my pastor as a man of God in my own ignorance, but, I know that the Lord has never led me to beleive otherwise. I fully understand the interpretation of it being Jesus, as that makes sense.

I have continually doubted God's Word when reading different passages.. more like.. I have doubted God's man and tried to understand what others have told me.. such as the subject of baptism.. the bible repent and be baptised for salvation.. or something like that.. yet.. I knwo the bible says that baptism doesn't save you. As with this, I struggled with tongues as to what the bible truly said about it and the Lord finally gave me peace in that it was his word that is complete and that the gift of tongues passed with the original churhces when the bible was complete... when that which is perfect was come...

Sorry for the long post, as once again, I was trying to figure it out in my own mind. The Lord has shown me his love once again; that love that I had been running frmo for the past four months as I said in another post. I feel that I can only be honest as to why I have that opinion, although I know, it seems as though I am not being firm in my beliefs and that I may be wavering, but I am not. I am not trusting in man but what the Lord has laid on my heart and giving me total peace about.

Thankyou for asking that question. It really did make me think Hope that answers your question. If not, please just ask I hope I didnt' lose anyone through that...

~Crystal

[nebula]

1 Corinthians 13

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. 13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

I find it interesting to note that this chapter is talking about love.

At the beginning of the chapter, Paul compares love to great spiritual achievements - and points out the greater value of love.

At the end of the chapter, he specifically compares love to spiritual gifts - and points out how love is eternal.

All this while, he is talking about love

So, how is "that which is perfect" suddenly become interpreted to mean the Canon of Scripture?

How does that fit in with the rest of the chapter?

What does the written Bible have to do with love?

I mean, do you see and experience the perfection of love on this planet, in your church, in your life? Or are there still "problems" (contentions, divisions, doubts)?

Do you see the Lord clearly face to face, or do you still see Him dimly?

[kittylover0991]

I really wish that I could answer your questions neb, but I would have to study a lot further into this. I know simply what the Lord showed me during those few services...

In response to Butero about the little child, I don't really know if he is saved, but he didnt' accept Christ that night.... At the end of services on Sunday night, we have the chance to go down to "the old fashioned altar".. in otherwords, go down to the front and pray... I love praying after the service.. just taking care of what the Lord has laid on my heart... However, many times when I go down to pray on Sunday nights, he is in the service with his mom, brother, and sister... and he goes down either to actually pray, or becuase that is what everyone else is doing. This time, we were both on the same side of the pulpit praying, and I asked him if he wanted to pray together... he is so cute... I love to see the faith of children... it is a true blessing...

it seems as though I myself have ventured off the topic at hand although I originally started this thread... I really don't have much more to say on this topic other than what was said... see you all again soon

Oh wait, by the way, I thought that the first presentation of the tongues in the bible(book of Acts), the disciples were speaking to a great multitude.. not in prayer... Many accepted Christ and joined the church that day... I think is what was said.

I know tongues was meant for edification of the church, I don't know much about the prayer, and I also know that tongues was also meant as a miracle, "a sign" if you will, to the lost as to what Jesus can really do. That is how I understand tonuges...

As for denominations, can we truly have fellowship, in a church(the local church), with others of different beliefs of what the bible says?

[Iryssa]

This, I think, is the attitude we should have regarding various denominations:

"For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man

[kittylover0991]

Maybe this is me being the Baptist that I am.. however.. I believe in my heart that I didn't "just so happen to be baptist"...

I can't honestly say I would know what I would think had I been going to a Pentacostal church, however, I do know that my boyfriend is a member at a Charismatic Pentecostal church(trying to get the spelling right) and he is very unsure about the subject of tongues although his brother claims to speak in such...

I don't believe in chance, so, I am sitting here thinking, "It isn't by chance that I am a Baptist and I doubt my view woudl be different otherwise"... however.. I am not trying to cause an arguement on such subject

I take it that the gift of tonuges, as to wether present today or done away with, with the first churches, is one of many things that divides us and causes the denominational division to because a strange neccessity....

<== still proud not to claim the title of Protestant