Still spinning

[Guest CharlieC]

You missed my point. Their unbelief was so severe that it could have only ended up as did the captain and fifty. That wasn

[Leonard]

Howdy Charlie!

Someone asked if you 'wanted to believe what we believe.' That of course is a perfectly awful basis on which to join any religion: "Gee, everyone else is doing it, why not?"

It's not original with me (I believe it was C.S. Lewis, said it) but "The religious life entered into sans investigation has no more merit than any other kind of life entered into sans investigation." What you are, Charlie, is a seeker of truth. That's an awfully good start! (By the way, people are forever complaining that I use big words. I will endeavor to not be so pedantic and hypercomplexificationalistic.)

A couple of misunderstandings you've presented here, I can probably clear up rather easily, and it will help along with the conversation a great deal. You keep saying that Jesus and the Apostles did these miracles "at their will" or "whenever they wanted to" and things like that. That is not really the case. Fact is Jesus said He did '...nothing, unless the Father tells me.....' As one who has been used to perform many deeds which we here usually call 'miraculous' I can tell you, that's just how it works. I cannot reach into my hip pocket and pull out some spiritual gift whenever I like. These things occur rather at the behest of Someone 'other than' me, Who makes His will known to me betimes. Backing this view up even more profoundly than the Scripture Nebula quoted to you, is another of the Synoptic Gospel's rendition of the same event, where it says outright: "He could do no mighty work there because of their unbelief..."

Which leads to the second issue. UNBELIEF CAN STOP THE FLOW OF THE MIRACULOUS (is OK to use the word 'miraculous'--even though it is loaded with meanings we might disagree on--as a convenient shorthand?) Especially, it seems, if people are 'believing against' something wonderful God has for them. That's a real pity, but it is so. Still, God is nothing if not Mystery, and sometimes, hard as people believe against some gift of God, they still receive it. Rev. Dave Wilkerson's grandfather was a Church of Christ Minister in the early years of the 20th century, and had carefully prepared a message against this 'new' phenomenon of 'speaking in tongues.' DURING the sermon, he was baptized in the Spirit and began speaking in tongues. So, if we look for the miraculous solely on the basis of somebody 'having faith' then it seems we will be overlooking other factors. And if we try to define exactly when God will and will not perform miracles, then we will certainly create a box too small to contain God.

Now, I'm pooped and am going to bed.

Every blessing

[Guest CharlieC]

Leonard

This will be here for you when you wake up.

Solving Nahm's equations in the Lie algebra of certain vector fields won’t help you in this discussion.

I disagree with this part of your post first because of these writings in the bible.

You keep saying that Jesus and the Apostles did these miracles "at their will" or "whenever they wanted to" and things like that. That is not really the case. Fact is Jesus said He did '...nothing, unless the Father tells me.....' As one who has been used to perform many deeds which we here usually call 'miraculous' I can tell you, that's just how it works. I cannot reach into my hip pocket and pull out some spiritual gift whenever I like.

So Jesus said to them, "Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.

So Jesus answered and said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, 'Be removed and be cast into the sea,' it will be done.

So the Lord said, "If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,' and it would obey you.

Then Peter said, "Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk."

My next question would naturally be “Is Jesus telling the truth in these passages”? My next question would be “If Jesus was the father as he claimed then wouldn’t he have shown himself by his spirit what to do? Then he taught his apostles and with his mouth giving them authority to do the same? But now man only has the written word inviting them to the same understanding and standing before God?

Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."

These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

I will be here all day tomorrow but during the week my time is very limited.

Charlie

Edited February 26, 2006 by CharlieC

[Guest yod]

These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

Hi Charley,

welcome back

These disciples were with Yeshua for quite a while before they were told to do this.

Let's look at the context;

BEFORE THAT VERSE; He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

Apparently they didn't have the ability to just "turn it on" until Yeshua gave this authority at the beginning of this commission. No where does the Bible say that this is done on an instant whim, though sometimes it did happen that way.

AFTER THAT VERSE;9Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts; 10take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep.

13If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. 15I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

17"Be on your guard against men;

21"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another.

24"A student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebub, how much more the members of his household!

32"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'

37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

40"He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me.

There are some requirements for receiving His blessing...His healing.

Primarily the willingness to receive Him with gladness. Those who were not ashamed of being His were healed. As Matthew would say, "These things were done so the scriptures might be fulfilled..."

[Triple Crown]

3 If anyone teaches otherwise

and does not consent to wholesome words,

even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ,

and to the doctrine which accords with godliness,

4 he is proud, knowing nothing,

but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words,

1 Timothy 6:3-4

2 We have renounced the deeds men hide for very shame;

we neither practise cunning

nor distort the word of God;

only by declaring the truth openly do we recommend ourselves,

and then it is to the concience of our fellow-men

and in the sight of God.

3 and if indeed our gospel be found veiled,

the only people who find it so are on the way to perdition.

4 Their unbelieving minds are so blinded by the god of this passing age

that the gospel of the glory of Christ,

who is the very image of God,

cannot dawn upon them and bring them light.

5 It is not ourselves we proclaim; we proclaim Christ Jesus as Lord

and ourselves as your servants,

for Jesus' sake.

2 Corinthians 4:2-5

4 We do not curry favor with men;

we seek only the favor of God

who is continually testing our hearts,

1 Thessalonians 2:4

This thread has become a ridiculous contest it seems....

The bolds are for you Charlie

The (3) Scripture references are just a reminder for my bretheren

Peace to you all

God Bless you Charlie

TC

[Guest CharlieC]

These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

Hi Charley,

welcome back

These disciples were with Yeshua for quite a while before they were told to do this.

Let's look at the context;

BEFORE THAT VERSE; He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

Apparently they didn't have the ability to just "turn it on" until Yeshua gave this authority at the beginning of this commission. No where does the Bible say that this is done on an instant whim, though sometimes it did happen that way.

AFTER THAT VERSE;9Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts; 10take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep.

13If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. 15I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

17"Be on your guard against men;

21"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another.

24"A student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebub, how much more the members of his household!

32"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'

37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

40"He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me.

There are some requirements for receiving His blessing...His healing.

Primarily the willingness to receive Him with gladness. Those who were not ashamed of being His were healed. As Matthew would say, "These things were done so the scriptures might be fulfilled..."

You haven't made much sense here Yod. Jesus said freely you have received, freely give. How can you freely give if you are waiting for someone else to do it? Jesus said you can say to this mountain, mulberry tree, fig tree. On the other hand of understanding, if you have not freely received, you can not freely give. It is apparent in these writings that Jesus healed those who he chose and the power to do it followed his command. It is also apparent that the apostles healed who they chose and the power to do it followed their command. God gave Jesus the authority through their spirit. Jesus gave the authority to the apostles by word of mouth and seeing it happen at his command. Where does that leave you and me? It appears that we have a world full of doubting Thomases.

Charlie

[Guest CharlieC]

3 If anyone teaches otherwise

and does not consent to wholesome words,

even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ,

and to the doctrine which accords with godliness,

4 he is proud, knowing nothing,

but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words,

1 Timothy 6:3-4

2 We have renounced the deeds men hide for very shame;

we neither practise cunning

nor distort the word of God;

only by declaring the truth openly do we recommend ourselves,

and then it is to the concience of our fellow-men

and in the sight of God.

3 and if indeed our gospel be found veiled,

the only people who find it so are on the way to perdition.

4 Their unbelieving minds are so blinded by the god of this passing age

that the gospel of the glory of Christ,

who is the very image of God,

cannot dawn upon them and bring them light.

5 It is not ourselves we proclaim; we proclaim Christ Jesus as Lord

and ourselves as your servants,

for Jesus' sake.

2 Corinthians 4:2-5

4 We do not curry favor with men;

we seek only the favor of God

who is continually testing our hearts,

1 Thessalonians 2:4

This thread has become a ridiculous contest it seems....

The bolds are for you Charlie

The (3) Scripture references are just a reminder for my bretheren

Peace to you all

God Bless you Charlie

TC

The bolds back at you TC. You are the one who wants to keep it veiled. It is very simple to understand and out in the open to me. Instead of whirling accusations at my screen maybe you could enlighten me as to why these writing don't mean what they say.

Charlie

[Triple Crown]

It is very simple to understand and out in the open to me.

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

My apologies to you Charlie, I meant no insult or accusation in my post.

I am truly sorry!!!

I KNOW that these writings, and all Scriptural writing "means what it says", and have no need to "enlighten you". If you can't find your own illumination, no one will be able to find it for you, here or anywhere.

Good luck and have fun with your game

God Bless

in His service

TC

[Guest CharlieC]

It is very simple to understand and out in the open to me.

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

My apologies to you Charlie, I meant no insult or accusation in my post.

I am truly sorry!!!

I KNOW that these writings, and all Scriptural writing "means what it says", and have no need to "enlighten you". If you can't find your own illumination, no one will be able to find it for you, here or anywhere.

Good luck and have fun with your game

God Bless

in His service

TC

TC I am perplexed.

What does luck have to do with it? And you end I'm sorry with the claim that searching for truth is a game?

Charlie

[David from New Bern]

It is very simple to understand and out in the open to me.

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

My apologies to you Charlie, I meant no insult or accusation in my post.

I am truly sorry!!!

I KNOW that these writings, and all Scriptural writing "means what it says", and have no need to "enlighten you". If you can't find your own illumination, no one will be able to find it for you, here or anywhere.

Good luck and have fun with your game

God Bless

in His service

TC

TC I am perplexed.

What does luck have to do with it? And you end I'm sorry with the claim that searching for truth is a game?

Charlie

Charlie, I think you know what he means. It is a weekend game. At this point it doesn't even take the Biblical gift of discernment to realize this is a debate game. You have no desire to be convinced, but merely be intrigued with debating. If I am wrong, I apologize to everyone reading this. But, this is a lesson in tennis not genuine theology. Your serve Charlie