Suicide

[Openly Curious]

In Judges 16:29-30 Samsonl killed himself and all those inside, by pushing two pillars apart. Since suicide is a sin that cannot be forgiven due to the person's inability to repent and confess, did Samsonl go to hell?

In 1 Samuel 31:4-6 Saul fell on his sword after his armor bearere refused to kill him. Then the armor bearer also fell on his sword. Are both of these men in hell?

Not very convincing how do you know where Samson went how do you know where King Saul went can you prove it. And if they did both go to heaven. Then your gospel is also thus this:

If God be thus pleased with us and will if fact receive us even if He is not pleased with us why don't we just all kill ourselves right now and go on to heaven after all the saints of old did it.

This is the doctrine you have thus far provided me with.

Where is my gun?

OC

Edited March 23, 2006 by Openly Curious

[Trinity]

Romans 8:38-39

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Openly Curious]

In Judges 16:29-30 Samsonl killed himself and all those inside, by pushing two pillars apart. Since suicide is a sin that cannot be forgiven due to the person's inability to repent and confess, did Samsonl go to hell?

In 1 Samuel 31:4-6 Saul fell on his sword after his armor bearere refused to kill him. Then the armor bearer also fell on his sword. Are both of these men in hell?

Although he didn't follow through, Elijah also was desperate enough at one point to beg God to take his life.

"He came to a broom tree, sat down under it and prayed to die. "I have had enough, Lord, " he said, "Take my life; I am no better than my ancestors." I Kings 19:4

Yes Elijah was wanting out but there is a great lesson in that story for us In that all the things he was struggling through he was looking to the Lord praying and telling him how he felt in the agony of his soul. And he was wanting to hear from God and he wasn't in the whirlwind and the thunder. But it was in the "still small voice" that he needed to hear. There are alot of noises in this world there are alot of voices in this world. But what people yearn for is that "still small voice" to just whisper peace into their heart to know God is with them. For it means more than anything this world has to offer to know God is with you.

Openly Curious

[Openly Curious]

In several of my counseling sessions, I was asked if I had any unforgiveness in my heart.

I said, "Not that I can think of."

The person said, "Well, let's ask the Lord about it." So we asked the Lord to uncover any unforgiveness I had.

The next thing I know, names and faces popped up - and I realized . . . yeah, I did harbor bitterness or other not-so-pleasant feelings about them. I was even mad at a former roommate for never having written bqack to me!

If I had died before I repented of the unforgiveness I had in my heart for all these people, would I have gone to Hell?

How many Christians are there, like me, harboring unforgiveness that don't realize it's there - but it is - or who are still struggling with forgiving someone who severely hurt them - if they die before repenting, will they all go to Hell?

What did Jesus teach us about forgiveness if we don't forgive I mean that gospel right Jesus did teach about the sin of unforgiveness. you did have to get the sin out right it couldn't stay could it or couldn't. if not why not? I mean in your view it is all secure right so why couldn't it stay? Can you tell me why or will you tell me why?

Openly Curious

[Openly Curious]

In several of my counseling sessions, I was asked if I had any unforgiveness in my heart.

I said, "Not that I can think of."

The person said, "Well, let's ask the Lord about it." So we asked the Lord to uncover any unforgiveness I had.

The next thing I know, names and faces popped up - and I realized . . . yeah, I did harbor bitterness or other not-so-pleasant feelings about them. I was even mad at a former roommate for never having written bqack to me!

If I had died before I repented of the unforgiveness I had in my heart for all these people, would I have gone to Hell?

How many Christians are there, like me, harboring unforgiveness that don't realize it's there - but it is - or who are still struggling with forgiving someone who severely hurt them - if they die before repenting, will they all go to Hell?

This is just one of the many reasons I believe it's incorrect to assume that salvation is the responsibility of the believer. It wasn't your responsibility to acheive salvation on your own, it isn't your responsibility to "retain" it. That is God's job alone. Sin seperates us, it hinders our fellowship with God and with others and it prevents us from moving forward in the sanctification process. Sin, if left unconfessed and unrepented of, will certainly lead us to despair. Hebrews 12 teaches us that God chastens those who belong to Him. It doesn't say He disowns us. He doesn't say to get our act together and then come back to Him. When we stray, He draws us back.

It is our responsibility to "retain" it and this is godly counsel all the way. Unfortunately some will choose not to come back and choose to stay in their sins instead.

Openly Curious

[Openly Curious]

Fom what I can gather, you would council the suicidal by telling them that theyre relationship with God is rubbish, theyre not faithful enough, they should turn to him for a quick fix, but he isnt able to maintain or uphold them anyway, they have to do that themselves and they will have no assurances until they actually DO die and only then will they trully find out if they are saved. Sounds to me like theyd be better off slitting their wrists, saying theyre sorry and then waiting to die. No security in a life that offers no comforts, just say youre sorry and get it over with, hopefully you might just get in the front door....

I felt so trapped - I tried so hard to have this "perfected attitude", and I couldn't.

That hits the nail on the head. You tried and you failed because you can't. We cannot do any of this in our ability. I agree 10000% that it can not be achieved in yourself. But when we see Christ. When we tell our Lord I give up. I can not control this. O what freedom, for His Grace is made perfect in our weakness. This is all I have been saying Christ is our All, and He desires to be our all.

For encouragement, she would say, "Well, it just proves you aren't walking in perfection yet."

How could I find hope in God with that?

I agree with this too, how can you find hope in that. But I think that we dont forget that we do have perfection dwelling within our beings. We are the vessels that contain perfection. Praise God, we have His PERFECT LIFE. It is by this Life by which we overcome by which we should Live. This is what our brother Nee was saying. Don't try to be anything other than useless before the Lord. Please read post 108 again, not even my words but what I posted from the Overcoming Life.

Oh - and ruck1b - she used Watchman Nee's teachings.

All i can say is that the brother points you to Christ. Christ desires to be your ALL, what else is there to it. It really is that simple. Either our House is built on the Rock, or on the sand.

One can find hope in God no matter what. Being a confessing believer who has already received forgiveness of sins ought to teach us this.

Openly Curious

[Openly Curious]

If a person commits suicide it means they're weak, and that's all.

And the message to the suicidal from God would be from christians giving hope to them.

In "our" weaknesses "He" is made strong.

[Openly Curious]

So in your sympathy for these in this situation your encouragement would be just don't do it cause alot of people love you and don't want you to die because it will break our hearts to see you go. And God's heart would be broken also, and he knows your sufferings "But" he wants you to live, be healed, then share all your wisdom with us and spread God's love through your experience.

Almost sounds like a quick fix to me.

Nebula said that didn't work for Him.

I'm a

And umm . . . didn't I say that not wanting to break God's heart is why I found the strength not to kill myself?

But Nebula don't you still "not want" to break God's heart. If you can understand from experience that you can find strength in that--why not use it still for your good.

I mean those dark emotions of despair have to escalate to the point of going over the edge and killing yourself.

Well it was at the height of those emotions that you testify you found strenghth.

So why not draw strength from God as well in the lower times of the emotions.

So why not use that truth for your good as you have the knowledge of this.

Not wanting to break God's heart can be a powerful tool in your situation.

God Bless

Openly Curious

[K.L.]

What a discussion! If anyone has in their heart the motive to kill themselves, for whom are they living for, that would bring such despair? If you live for Yeshua, he brings you hope. If you live for the world (yourself included) you will have despare. We are dead to this world and alive in Yeshua... there is no room for both. Either your ALIVE in him, or dead.

K.L.

[Openly Curious]

Well now I think I've figured out that this topic has turned into a doctrinal debate not over suicide but over what one is calling eternal security verses those who have a different view.

Well I didn't understand that such a thing existed I knew people had different views of the bible but did not understand these two groups actually fight against one another.

I had to even ask LadyC. within this thread what did OSAS stand for because I did not know.

I am a student of the bible and my views have been formed from the bible I am not schooled in denominational differences.

And as I am becoming aware of these vary differences I can see alot of people ain't studying their bibles. But since I have now realized this denomination doctrine teaching I will ask of those to supply me with scriptures to back up their beliefs for I have been very gracious within this thread sharing scriptures with you but now I ask this of all those who do not share with my biblical views to teach and share their scriptures with me that we may discuss them. I mean you ought to be able to back up what you believe in not just me.

God Bless

Openly Curious

For clarification please read post #141 on this

thank you

Openly Curious

I'm sorry, but this clarifies nothing. You avoided my questions as you've avoided nearly every question that has been asked of you. I fail to see how a discussion with you can be fruitful at all when the communication and understanding is so inadequate. You have stated you are "student of the bible", but so was Joseph Smith, so was David Koresh, so was Jim Jones, so was Andrea Yates. When you offer little to no Scripture, zero interpretation and refuse to respond directly to questions about your beliefs, why should we be expected to believe there is any validity to what you assert? What reason is there for us to believe you know what you're talking about?

I use the same English language that you are using with me when communicating with others. You might not like my reply but you did get them so for you to say I avoided you is not true. I do not feel I have to divulge all of my personal life with those online because you demand that I do. Don't blame me for your inadequatcy of not understanding. For I could also do the same with you in failing to accept my right not to divulge all my personal life online.

You do not need to know of the things you ask.

To lump me in with all the heretical and cult leaders that you have mentioned is in poor taste on your part as well.

What scripture do you want to discuss with me you pick it out and we will talk.

I will respond to the post as I see fit sometimes it takes me a little time to figure out what the person is trying to say to me so I do not want to misunderstand what is being asked of me. So I'm sorry that I'm not so quick and efficient as you would like me to me and Lord sometimes I need to go to the bathroom and eat.

I have been sharing my beliefs all along where have you been.

I am not "expecting" it of anyone to believe the gospel that I share. I hope they will embrace the hope of Christ that I share. Sadly not all will and you will know the validity of it if you read and study your bible.

What reason have you provided for me on my behalf to prove you know what you're talking about and I can believe in you.

I do not demand anything from you but I know when you speak truth because I know the word and the things that it teaches.

Openly Curious