Incredible!

[nebula]

It's not like you have to adopt their theology to sing...but where does one draw the line? When is it worship, entertainment, teaching, evangelism.....and when is it endorsing herecy?

I'd really like to know....

Tough one, isn't it?

I'll be praying for you.

Though, as far as worship vs. entertainment, the only way I have seen this worked out is someone who's attitude is, "I'm here to worship and minister to the Lord. I invite you to minister to the Lord along with me." He never "sings to the audience" unless it actually is a song that is meant to minister to the people - which isn't done during the time set aside for worship.

If that helps any (?).

[Yahsway]

Exactly Nebula, not entertainment but worship. anyways, thats how I see it.

Yod, loosen up man, its just a joke. Jimmy Black lives in FL, and was kicked out of his church for ministering to messianics. You know, he was advocating Torah, feasts days, the sabbath and so on. So I guess they sort of labeled him a "heritic" and they basicly said we dont want you here.Basically they were saying your a gentile so dont go there and dont take us with you.

Same thing happened to me at the A/G. Once you start speaking truth about the Fathers set-apart times and getting back to your hebrew roots, well, out the door you go, either by Yahs hand or theirs.

It all goes back to the Shema, either hear and obey or close your ears.

A lot of the denominations want to know about their hebrew roots, but thats as far as it goes with many of them. To worship on the true sabbath, attend the feast days and so on is like trampling on the grace they recieved from Yeshua. They believe all those things are good to know about, but are not relevent for today, at least not for them.

And so, round and round we go. Messianics are distressed that PW would sing at a BH service, "christians" are distressed if any of their worship leaders sing for messianics, and we just keep the merrygoround swinging.

I wasnt "less" saved because I belonged to the "church" for all those years. I was just ignorant because of how I was taught. Maybe, and just maybe mind you, Yah has placed these singers such as PW and JC in such places so that those believers might start asking questions like "who are they"?, "Oh, they are jewish believers"? "whats that'"? "how are they any different than those in the church who are believers"?

See what I mean? then G-d uses that to challange many to learn their hebriac roots of their faith. Its possiable. What do you think?

Yod, I know that you minister to G-d and to His people thru your music. Do you only play in messianic circles, or do you reach out to others in the church? Just curious.

As for me, I wont stop buying PW albums (unless he starts lifting up BH or something in his music) which I doubt will ever happen.

The old saying that music is a universal language is true I think. If I could find some common ground with someone thru messianic music, then that might open the door to witness to someone about Yeshua, and about our hebrew roots of our faith.

And then I could send them to worthboards to talk to you and Shiloh cause you guys know a whole lot more about it than I do. Ha! But seriously, and not to get off subject, but Shiloh posted a study on psalms that made me weep for hours last night. Man it was right on time, for me anyway.

Do not be distressed any longer brother. You just keep playing for Him, and lifting up His name. He is in control of EVERYTHING. HallaluYah!! Shalom

[Guest yod]

Exactly Nebula, not entertainment but worship. anyways, thats how I see it.

Yod, loosen up man, its just a joke. Jimmy Black lives in FL, and was kicked out of his church for ministering to messianics. You know, he was advocating Torah, feasts days, the sabbath and so on. So I guess they sort of labeled him a "heritic" and they basicly said we dont want you here.Basically they were saying your a gentile so dont go there and dont take us with you.

First of all, I think there are different purposes for different music. I have no problem with "entertainment" if that is appropriate for the environment.

I'm not talking about a worship service obviously...but there are instances where there is nothing wrong with bringing a little joy to someone's life in that way.

Now...I'm not "uptight" about jimmy black, Yahs. I never heard of him so how could I be? The way you described him was someone that only plays in these 2 Stick places. That seemed to me to be a sure path to starvation..that's all.

A lot of the denominations want to know about their hebrew roots, but thats as far as it goes with many of them. To worship on the true sabbath, attend the feast days and so on is like trampling on the grace they recieved from Yeshua. They believe all those things are good to know about, but are not relevent for today, at least not for them.

it's that whole "hebraic vs hellenistic" debate. When someone finally does understand the truth of what they've been missing there is a feeling of being robbed.

But it never helps to start an arguement over it. They either have eyes to see it or they don't. When we show them our deeds are wrought in God, they will be able to trust our teaching. Until then, a confrontation only makes them defensive because we are challenging preconceived notions that are centuries old in some cases. It won't be undone by human means.

And so, round and round we go. Messianics are distressed that PW would sing at a BH service, "christians" are distressed if any of their worship leaders sing for messianics, and we just keep the merrygoround swinging.

OK...I can see that you are misinterpreting the cause of my distress! I'll explain after this next question of yours;

Do you only play in messianic circles, or do you reach out to others in the church? Just curious.

I will play for anyone willing to sit down and listen....BUT.....I have drawn a line at these 2-House Ephramites. It is a pretty strong conviction with me so far.

I have booked myself into every denomination you can imagine. I've done passover demonstrations for Baptist, Pentecostal, Catholic, Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc, etc, etc...

I've played MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS in a Church of Christ. How many people can say that?

I've gone outside the church walls and booked into coffeeshops, clubs, and even a new-age street festival in the gay section of town. I'm certainly of the opinion that God's Word should go into the highways and byways.

But the Ephramites claim to be messianic yet are teaching things which can NOT be found in the Bible as cornerstones of their theology. It would be easy for someone to think I endorse that....just as they might think Paul Wilbur is now an Ephramite.

What would you think if Paul Wilbur started doing a tour of Unitarian Churches? Would you think that is a compromise? What if Joel Chernoff started playing in Mormon Tabernacle or Jehovah Witness churches? Wouldn't you wonder about where he stood?

I would welcome all Unitarians in an audience...but can I play in their congregations without sending the message of endorsing them in some way?

You see what I mean? Where does a musician draw the line? Is there or is there not some line which can't be crossed?

Do not be distressed any longer brother. You just keep playing for Him, and lifting up His name. He is in control of EVERYTHING. HallaluYah!!  Shalom

There are a lot of things in the church which distress me. This is a very small one in comparison. Thanks for letting me vent! I appreciate your counsel.

[Yahsway]

Yod, I appreciate your honesty and now I have a better understanding of where you are coming from.

Yes, I would question the beliefs of one who would play in the congregations of Mormons, Unitarians, Jehova Witness,ect.. as I believe they see Yeshua as only a prophet and not G-d in the flesh.

As for Jimmy Black, I cannot say whether he plays only at 2-house events as I just met him in NC this past Succot, and yes it was a 2-house succot. It was just stated that he had been playing at some "messianic" events in the past and the church he was attending asked him to leave. Thats all I know at this time about him.

And you are right on about the Hebraic vs Hellinistic thought. I was confronted with it 3 years ago and became very "defensive". Then the Father softened my heart enough to be able to hear His voice and I finally heard Him say this is the way, walk in it.

I guess the "line to be crossed" will have to be up to each individual, and be between them and the Father. Just my opinion.

By the way, How did you ever pull that one off of playing instruments in the Church of Christ? Just wondering, as half of my family (on my mothers side) IS Church of Christ. I used to question my Grandfather on this one all the time, cause he loved music, sang on the local radio sation here, played guitar, loved to dance ect.. Just not in the church of christ building. Ha!

We are also a musical family and I just got the biggest kick of how he played His quitar outside the church and loved musical instruments, but would not play them in the church. The Father must have really opened the door for you there brother.

Yod, I pray you have a great rest of the week, and your welcome about the venting part. I may have to vent back and hope you are there to listen and give counsil also. Shalom Shalom

[Guest yod]

By the way, How did you ever pull that one off of playing instruments in the Church of Christ?

every year since 1990, I've done Passover demonstrations with a friend of mine. This man, Marty, already had an established relationship with this particular Church of Christ. They were also very much more "free" than any CoC you've probably seen.

Anyway, one year he told them that it would be more authentic if they had the Passover demonstration with some genuine jewish music. He basically sold them on it by making it more of a historical "education" instead of a worship concert.

It went great and EVERYONE loved it just fine...but the next year we had to do it outside because it caused such a ruckus at other local CoC churches. That particular church left the CoC about 6 or 7 years later.

[Guest yod]

Found an interesting article in this weeks newpaper......

The Vidorian

[Dad Ernie]

Pearce seems to have it right:

After his conversion in January of 1990, Pearce began attending the Messianic Jewish church Baruchha Shem (Bless the Name), to search for Jews who believed in Christ.

There are about 10,000,000 Jews scattered among the nations, and the majority, even more than in Israel are right here in the good ole USofA. May God bless his ministry abundantly.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[nebula]

Neat article!

Do you know how we can hear the song "Road to Jerusalem"?

[Ani Ma'amin!]

Anyone see him lately?