Those Who Believe Isaiah 53:4 .............

[Razberry]

Dear rasberry,

Looking at my post #1 you will see that I brought up the fact that Matthew in chapter 8, verse 16 and 17, said after listing many healings that Jesus did shortly after preaching the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew stated that the prophesy of Isaiah in the Old Testament had come to pass.

Then Matthew said "He, Himself took our infirmities, and carried away our deseases."

Since Matthew wrote this in the year 50 to 70 AD, he was stating that Jesus bore our sickness and diseases at Calvary.

Since Jesus redeemed us from sickness and disease as well as sin, we can ask for healing just as we ask for salvation with the assurrance that He has already accomplished it. We just have to receive it.

The disagreement is that some say God has not promised health to everyone.

But most people will agree that God has promised salvation to everyone.

We have to receive salvation by faith, and it's the same with healing, we have to receive it with faitth.

How many times did Jesus say to the healed ones, "your faith has made you whole " ?

Matthew 18.19

"Again I say to you that if two or three of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in Heaven."

I just believe what Jesus has spoken to us is truth.

May God Bless you

I asked for salvation and I believe I am saved, because He says I am. If I ask God to heal me (which I do) but He doesn't, isn't this saying my salvation isn't a sure thing, as promised?

[Franky67]

Franky,

The Lord Bless you brother.

Nowhere in Scripture does God guarentee that while in this flesh that we won't see Tribulation. As a Matter of fact He says quite the opposite;

Joh 16:33

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

God has overcome this world in Christ Jesus. You know this. Your flesh is corruptable and will not be made totally incooruptable until our Lord come. Scripture is quite clear. I personally am losing my hair. Not good for a guy with a conceit problem like mine. Just ask my wife. LOL

Am I lacking of Faith?

Your Doctrine leads to a logical conclussion that no Christian should ever fall ill. Which is really just absurd. There is a sister in my Church who has fallen ill. We are praying for her even now. However her healing comes? We will give God the Glory. She is a sister in Christ. Yet she has fallen ill.

Was this due to a lack of Faith on her part do you suppose?

Peace,

Dave

Hi, Dave

Thank you for the kindness reflected in your response.

My church also has prayed in vain for healing, and the most heart wrenching one was a 13 year old girl who died from cancer after we prayed for months.

I can't explain why these things happen, but I have chosen to believe God is what Jesus said He is, and I have chosen to go this direction with my life in Christ, because I believe we have a better chance of receiving from God when we believe.

Like Jesus said, "only believe"

If a person has been taught that God only heals when He decides to, then we can never have the faith to receive, like James said in 5:15.

In Nazareth, Jesus, God in the flesh was deterred from much works because of their lack of faith, they thought He was just a carpenter's son. All faith is, is believing what God says is true.

Jesus was so eager to heal in the four Gospels, why would He be any less eager to heal us now? Fact is, He already has, as Matthew said, taken our infirmities, and carried away our diseases.

Blessings of God to You

1. This is a hedonistic view. Your desire (for health, in this case) is the ultimate goal, and you've derived that "belief" will achieve your goal the best. It's selfish at it's heart.

2. This places the responsibility on the individual, rather than on God. It makes God dependent upon the person's faith (or lack thereof) before He can respond.

3. This neglects various instances in scripture when people (or their loved ones) were healed in spite of their "little faith" (see Mark 9 for example where a father admitted faith along with doubt).

4. This also disregards the fact that Scripture teaches "little faith" can accomplish great things (see Matthew 17:20).

5. We are taught in Scripture that faith comes from God, not ourselves. If faith is the culprit when we aren't healed, the ultimate blame must lie with God...as it originates from Him alone.

6. Even if we are to accept that increased faith is the only faith rewarded with healing, this would also contradict various other verses (including James 1:2-4) where we are taught that faith grows through trials. If faith grows through trials (as Scripture teaches), then this would explain why very often it's those who don't receive a healing who have such tremendous faith....as they have had to cling to God even more through their pain and suffering.

7. You reference James but neglect that he also refers to Job (in the verses prior to the one you mentioned) as a man of patience who endured through suffering.

In summary, your view of healing is quite skewed, unbiblical, and shows a great misunderstanding of faith, trust, and most importantly....grace. And again, why the obssession with physical healing? Why do you abandon topics you've started on the same issue, only to start new one's later? Is it because you are challenged and corrected, but rather than receiving correction...you just ignore it for a while then come back with the same old misinterpretations? Please just stick to one topic on the same issue. If you believe in it so strongly, show us your knowledgeable enough about it to withstand the challenges of those who disagree by sticking with it and responding to the challenges put forth. As shiloh mentioned, you need to learn to rightly divide the Word. Anytime the "faith healing" believers come around posting this stuff, I've yet to see anyone of you use scripture correctly or respond to challenges of your "interpretations". If it's so important that you think it's necessary to start repeated topics about it, then defend it.

Tess,

Here is what I said,

"I have chosen to believe God is what Jesus said He is, and I have chosen to go this direction with my life in Christ, because I believe we have a better chance of receiving from God when we believe. Like Jesus said," Only Believe."

Here is your Judgement of me for saying that,

"This is a Hedonistic view your desire (for health in this case) is the ultimate goal, and you've derived that belief will achieve your goal the best. It's selfish at it's heart."

Tess, do you really believe you've been fair in judging me ?

You don't know what my ultimate goal is in my walk with Christ.

Although I am nearly 81, I have no health issues, although one on here has said I am unsaved because I wear glasses, another judgement ?

When I made that statement above about believing God, I had the scripture in James 1.5-8 where James says if one lacks wisdom, let him ask in faith without doubting. doubting brings double mindedness, which means one may have two or more visions of the answer to his prayer in his mind, and God says that is doubt, and unbelief. Therefore I will choose to believe.

I believe the message of Jesus is to believe Him in everything He has said, and pray accordingly.

As To Faith, we are given a measure of faith when we are born of the Spirit.

God says faith comes by hearing the word of God. And without it we cannot please God.

INMO faith is believing God meant what He has said in His word.

When Jesus says the works He has done, we can do also, I believe that.

James says that trials test our faith and produce indurance. Trials don't build our faith, hearing and believing the word of God builds our faith.

[eric]

I'm a bit late as usual, but I have read through the most of the thread. I have also just read Luke.4:16-18 where Jesus stood up in the synagogue and gave His reason why He was there. To put it simply He said he had come to deliver the ones who were spiritually blind, broken hearted and bruised etc. from their spiritual captivity.

After saying that, I'm not denying His power to heal peoplle's phycical infirmities, because I have witnessed it, even to unbelievers. so I don't see how the amount of faith a person has can decide whether or not they will be healed.

Because the bible says we are saved by grace through faith and that is a gift if God, doesn't necessarily say by that same faith, that we will be healed of our phsyical conditions. Paul is witness to that.

We have brothers and sisters on this board, who are suffering now as I type and have been for years. Does that mean they have no faith? I doubt it. The Lord said it would be better to enter the kingdom of heaven with only one eye than not get there at all. So He must have known that not all would be physically perfect when their time came to be called home.

Spiritual healing?...Pysicall healing?...... two different branches of the same tree

eric

[Kabowd]

Tess,

Here is what I said,

"I have chosen to believe God is what Jesus said He is, and I have chosen to go this direction with my life in Christ, because I believe we have a better chance of receiving from God when we believe. Like Jesus said," Only Believe."

1. You have chosen to believe an incorrect view of Jesus, something He never said He was. It has been shown to you repeatedly that you are misinterpretting Scripture in order to hold this view. So don't pretend to be the only one believe "what Jesus said He is", when there are plenty of us who have a very firm grasp on the identity of Christ who disagree with you.

2. Your statement that believing such gives you a "better chance of receiving from God" is a very clear indication that this is a hedonistic view. There's no getting around it. Your wording is evidence of what is in your heart. Apparently, in your view God is like a great cosmic casino owner who doles out wealth and healing to those who "gamble" with the "best odds" (i.e. have enough faith). Banking on God because it gives you better odds is not the heart of faith, it's the heart of selfishness and greed.

Here is your Judgement of me for saying that,

"This is a Hedonistic view your desire (for health in this case) is the ultimate goal, and you've derived that belief will achieve your goal the best. It's selfish at it's heart."

Tess, do you really believe you've been fair in judging me ?

You don't know what my ultimate goal is in my walk with Christ.

My judgment is quite fair because it is based on the evidence (your very own words). I've watched you on the boards Franky. You have an extremely high preoccupation with physical health and prosperity. It overshadows everything else. Not only that, but between your own words (which reveal your heart) and your improper use of Scripture...what other judgment am I to make?

A person with a proper and sound understanding of Scripture realizes that to live is Christ, to die is gain. They've read the Scriptures on the suffering of the saints, they understand the verses that say we are to have "fellowship in His sufferings".They've read of the persecution, the torment, the weakness, illnesses, the martyrs, the poverty and can clearly understand that some of the most faithful people throughout history have been those who have suffered. They didn't have faith because it gave them better odds at receiving from God. They had faith because they knew that NO MATTER THEIR CIRCUMSTANCE GOD WAS/IS STILL GOOD. They understood that He alone is God. They submitted their lives to His purposes even when they did not understand.

This "Word of Faith" baloney philosophy would not have lasted one day in the early centuries. It wouldn't last one day right now in places like Afghanistan, China, North Korea or many other places where those who preach Christ risk their lives. I have friends who are missionaries in Uzbekistan that we haven't heard from in months. Their e-mails are monitored, they live there undercover (with their two small children), risking their lives daily to share the gospel of Christ. Do you think if they come down with a cold, they lack faith? If one of them gets cancer, is that evidence that they lack faith? It's easy for someone like you to sit there and preach this nonsense. You've lived a long life in a free country. Your perspective is VERY limited. But when you compare your life against those who have suffered greatly or risked EVERYTHING to serve God, I'm sorry but your faith just doesn't match up. It takes greater faith to walk through trials, illness, uncertainty and face death than it does to receive a healing or be healthy. I'm highly skeptical of those who walk through life with very little hardship, this means they never grow (according to James).

Although I am nearly 81, I have no health issues, although one on here has said I am unsaved because I wear glasses, another judgement ?

It was brought up because apparently you admitted at another time that you wear glasses. If this is so, this contradicts everything you've claimed thus far. Shouldn't you just have faith that God will give you clear vision? Where is your faith? Why don't you just throw your glasses away? Wouldn't this "act of faith" give you better odds at receiving from God?

I'm a bit late as usual, but I have read through the most of the thread. I have also just read Luke.4:16-18 where Jesus stood up in the synagogue and gave His reason why He was there. To put it simply He said he had come to deliver the ones who were spiritually blind, broken hearted and bruised etc. from their spiritual captivity.

After saying that, I'm not denying His power to heal peoplle's phycical infirmities, because I have witnessed it, even to unbelievers. so I don't see how the amount of faith a person has can decide whether or not they will be healed.

Because the bible says we are saved by grace through faith and that is a gift if God, doesn't necessarily say by that same faith, that we will be healed of our phsyical conditions. Paul is witness to that.

We have brothers and sisters on this board, who are suffering now as I type and have been for years. Does that mean they have no faith? I doubt it. The Lord said it would be better to enter the kingdom of heaven with only one eye than not get there at all. So He must have known that not all would be physically perfect when their time came to be called home.

Spiritual healing?...Pysicall healing?...... two different branches of the same tree

eric

Exactly. You narrowed it right down Mr. eric. This word of faith baloney enrages me because it is wounding to the body. It's heartless and callous to the suffering of others. It's presumptuous and pious, selfish and condescending. People who come on these boards touting this stuff have no regard for the people they might wound with their flimsy doctrine. They sit from the comfort of their own homes, in a free country, with no problems or having had very few serious struggles. They've witnessed a few "healings" and/or been sitting under the teaching of people like Copeland, Hinn, Hagin and others who douse their minds with this "me theology" and it fills them with enough boldness that they feel compelled to "enlighten" the rest of us, as if we're all just sitting in the dark, faithless and waiting for their "revelation" to free us. I'm sick of it. This isn't the heart of Christ. He didn't burden people with yokes like this, He freed them. God has showed us throughout history that real faith is tested and refined, through trials. His steady promise throughout the history of mankind has been that He will never leave us or forsake us....He'll be there through it all. This should be our hope and faith; His presence. Not what He can give us or how we can manipulate HIm to give us what we want or think we need. Just sheer trust that because He is with us, He'll take care of us and guide us through.

Real faith doesn't say "God, if you love me like you say you do, you'll give me what I need". Real faith says, "God, I know You're with me, even when everything else seems set against me. But because You're with me, I have everything I need."

One of my all time favorite verses in Scripture is this:

"One thing I ask of the Lord, this is what I seek: that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to gave upon the beauty of the Lord and to seek him in his temple. For in the day of trouble he will keep me in the shelter of his tabernacle and set me high upon a rock. Then my head will be exalted above the enemies who surround me; at his tabernacle will I sacrifice with shouts of joy; I will sing and make music to the Lord. Hear my voice when I call, O Lord; be merciful to me and answer me. My heart says of you, "Seek his face!" Your face, Lord, I will seek." ~ Psalm 27:4-8

David was no stranger to fear and suffering. But one of the things I love about this portion of this Psalm is that it shows that his heart rested in simply being in God's presence. All he cared about was being with God, gazing at His beauty. Though his enemy was right outside, surrounding him, he knew that as long as he stayed in God's presence he was okay. David had every reason to fear because his enemy was near and eager to destroy him, and yet he says he'll sacrifice with shouts of joy....he chose to worship God because He was with him.

When we presume that God should heal us of every single disease, instead of resting in His presence and trusting He'll do what is best, we are seeking His hand, not His face. The main problem I have with the word of faith teaching is that the entire focus is shifted from God and Who He is, to us and what we can get from God. It becomes more about what He can do for us (to make us comfortable, ease our burdens, heal us, etc), and less about clinging to Him and just gazing at His beauty. He is beautiful whether He heals us or not. But some people fail to see His beauty unless He performs the way they want Him to.

[Franky67]

My other cheek is turned to you, Tess strike me again.

[Kabowd]

My other cheek is turned to you, Tess strike me again.

Playing the victim is your only response? Why is it that when your theology is challenged, you either disappear (only to return to the same issue and start yet another topic), or you try to play the victim? If you believe in this so strongly, then defend it. Don't dance around the issue, throwing out misapplied Scripture, then get all wounded when it's challenged. You opened the discussion, so let's discuss it.

Do you have a legitmate response to the Scripture and biblical defense I've given or not? Or shall I assume from your record that you'll just ignore the challenges brought forth and simply start another topic at a later date?

[Franky67]

My other cheek is turned to you, Tess strike me again.

Playing the victim is your only response? Why is it that when your theology is challenged, you either disappear (only to return to the same issue and start yet another topic), or you try to play the victim? If you believe in this so strongly, then defend it. Don't dance around the issue, throwing out misapplied Scripture, then get all wounded when it's challenged. You opened the discussion, so let's discuss it.

Do you have a legitmate response to the Scripture and biblical defense I've given or not? Or shall I assume from your record that you'll just ignore the challenges brought forth and simply start another topic at a later date?

Just one, Tess, I'm tired !

He, Himself took our infirmities, and carried away our diseases.

What, about Matthew's statement, don't you believe ?

[Sterling]

Wow, this topic sure draws fire. I am dispensationalist as well, and I also believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today, including the gift of healing. I think it's really very simple, actually. I believe it is G-d's will that we all be perfectly whole, but we also live in a fallen world and are therefore subject to germs, sickness and disease. Our bodies age, they decay and fall apart. Sometimes, G-d intervenes in the affairs of man in a miraculous way and we see people healed. I am an example of this. Other times the Lord heals through doctors and medicine, I am also an example of that. No man is capable of healing another man; only G-d can do that.

A text without a context is just a pretext. (I didn't make that up, my pastor uses it all the time, usually to correct me.)

I have to ask, why do you write G-d instead of God?

By the way that's one of my favorite sayings.

[apothanein kerdos]

My other cheek is turned to you, Tess strike me again.

Playing the victim is your only response? Why is it that when your theology is challenged, you either disappear (only to return to the same issue and start yet another topic), or you try to play the victim? If you believe in this so strongly, then defend it. Don't dance around the issue, throwing out misapplied Scripture, then get all wounded when it's challenged. You opened the discussion, so let's discuss it.

Do you have a legitmate response to the Scripture and biblical defense I've given or not? Or shall I assume from your record that you'll just ignore the challenges brought forth and simply start another topic at a later date?

Just one, Tess, I'm tired !

He, Himself took our infirmities, and carried away our diseases.

What, about Matthew's statement, don't you believe ?

She's already stated is multiple times and you have yet to offer a counter interpretation. Franky, if all you are going to do is come here, post the same thing over and over and over again, and when someone disagrees with you go back to your original intent, then you really have achieved your purpose and therefore have no need to continue posting.