Koran: Help?

[David from New Bern]

My youngest son has a World History teacher that has singled him out as a preacher's kid for some reason. He is using his bully pulpit to promote the current redefining of Islam as a peace loving religion of honor, ala President George Bush's endorsement. This teacher was bold enough to tie the KKK to the Baptist in origin. Last night I went to Books-A-Million and purchased an English copy of the Koran. Has anybody on the forum read and researched this "Holy Koran" enough to help me locate and be able to cite textual proof that it is a call to violence in the name of Allah? I have found several hints of that in a brief scan. This is important to my 15year old son to answer intellectually this instructor who is molding yooung minds.

Edited April 7, 2006 by David from New Bern

[Matthitjah]

Brother David,

I would turn it over to God. The whole situation. Then sit in expectation for what He will do. Especially if this fellow has chosen to single out your Christian son.

God told Abraham that He would bless those who blessed him and curse those who cursed him. He did just that when Abraham was afraid and told a King that Sarai was his sister.

If you still feel you need some ammo? Check out a site called CARM. Christian Research and Apologetics Ministry. CARM.ORG

Peace,

Dave

[David from New Bern]

Brother David,

I would turn it over to God. The whole situation. Then sit in expectation for what He will do. Especially if this fellow has chosen to single out your Christian son.

God told Abraham that He would bless those who blessed him and curse those who cursed him. He did just that when Abraham was afraid and told a King that Sarai was his sister.

If you still feel you need some ammo? Check out a site called CARM. Christian Research and Apologetics Ministry. CARM.ORG

Peace,

Dave

Thanks for your help...here is what I found on the websites you offered as a source. I highlighted them in my copy of the Koran....

Islam, proof of call to violence

Torment to Non-believers:

SURA 4.56: (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

No friends from outsiders

3.118: O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people; they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand.

Friends with Jews, Christians...

5.51: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

God a plotter

8.30: And when those who disbelieved devised plans against you that they might confine you or slay you or drive you away; and they devised plans and Allah too had arranged a plan; and Allah is the best of planners.

No friends with non believers

3.28: Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.

No friends with parents/siblings if not believers

9.23: O you who believe! do not take your fathers and your brothers for guardians if they love unbelief more than belief; and whoever of you takes them for a guardian, these it is that are the unjust.

Fight non-believers

9.123: O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

Kill non-believers

4.89 : They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

Killing Idolaters

9.5: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Smite the neck and cut fingertips of unbelievers

8.12: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

Smite the neck of unbelievers

47.4: So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.

Threat of punishment for not going to war

9.38 : O you who believe! What (excuse) have you that when it is said to you: Go forth in Allah's way, you should incline heavily to earth; are you contented with this world's life instead of the hereafter? But the provision of this world's life compared with the hereafter is but little.

9.39 : If you do not go forth, He will chastise you with a painful chastisement and bring in your place a people other than you, and you will do Him no harm; and Allah has power over all things.

48.16 : Say to those of the dwellers of the desert who were left behind: You shall soon be invited (to fight) against a people possessing mighty prowess; you will fight against them until they submit; then if you obey, Allah will grant you a good reward; and if you turn back as you turned back before, He will punish you with a painful punishment.

Intentionally preventing unbelievers from knowing the truth

6.25 : And of them is he who hearkens to you, and We have cast veils over their hearts lest they understand it and a heaviness into their ears; and even if they see every sign they will not believe in it; so much so that when they come to you they only dispute with you; those who disbelieve say: This is naught but the stories of the ancients.

6.110 : And We will turn their hearts and their sights, even as they did not believe in it the first time, and We will leave them in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on.

<A name=17.45>Intentionally preventing unbelievers from Understanding Koran

17.45 : And when you recite the Quran, We place between you and those who do not believe in the hereafter a hidden barrier;

17.46 : And We have placed coverings on their hearts and a heaviness in their ears lest they understand it, and when you mention your Lord alone in the Quran they turn their backs in aversion.

[Copper Scroll]

Has anybody on the forum read and researched this "Holy Koran" enough to help me locate and be able to cite textual proof that it is a call to violence in the name of Allah? I have found several hints of that in a brief scan. This is important to my 15year old son to answer intellectually this instructor who is molding yooung minds.

The title of your thread would lead me to think that you were looking for proof that Islam is peaceful but here you ask for proof that Islam is violent. To be fair, shouldn't you be interested in both? If not, you're no better than the teacher.

It sounds like you already had your mind made up on the issue--before proof.

[50_Cent's_dog]

Hey Cooperscroll,

The point David is trying to make is that the teacher was very wrong to say that Islam is a religion of peace. It is not a religion of God. It's followers are all going to hell because they don't know the Jesus of the Bible. The teacher seems to be promoting Islam as a religion that is good. He needs to be told the truth with love so that he might get saved.

[Leonard]

One of the problems is that in the last 8 or 10 years, Arabic translators have softened the Koran in English translation considerably. For instance, often when the word in Arabic is 'kill' 'slaughter' or 'destroy' the infidel, they put it in their new versions as 'put the unbeliever away from you....' or such EXTREMELY euphemistic (and deceptive) phraseology. Make sure you get an earlier translatiion......

[Copper Scroll]

Hey Cooperscroll,

The point David is trying to make is that the teacher was very wrong to say that Islam is a religion of peace.

Hi.

The OP seems to ask for proof of or justification for a conclusion he's already arrived at. It's like a president who's already decided that he's going to war but then asks his staff to come up with reasons why the war is a good one. This is not the "fair & balanced" way to approach controversial issues. A better question would have been: What does the Koran say about peace, and what does it say about violence? and where does it say these things? And don't just ask Christians--ask Muslims and secularists too. Acquire a balanced, well-informed perspective--not anti-(fill in the blank) propaganda.

[Parmaynu]

One of the problems is that in the last 8 or 10 years, Arabic translators have softened the Koran in English translation considerably. For instance, often when the word in Arabic is 'kill' 'slaughter' or 'destroy' the infidel, they put it in their new versions as 'put the unbeliever away from you....' or such EXTREMELY euphemistic (and deceptive) phraseology. Make sure you get an earlier translatiion......

Deuteronomy 21

Marrying a Captive Woman

(10) When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, (11) if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails (13) and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife.

Obviously the actions described above would not be deemed acceptable by the majority of Christians living today, nor would the majority of this forum's users see this as acceptable behaviour. It is therefore the case that the opinions and standards of the Christian church have changed over time, and I wish to propose that the same has happened within the Islamic faith.

Rather than seeing the renewed translations (which you describe above) as 'deceptive' euphemisms designed to mask the sinister intentions of bloodthirsty Muslims, it would surely make more sense to assume that the Arabic translators who 'have softened the Koran' did so in order to better reflect the views of today's Muslim community, who would genuinely prefer to 'put the unbeliever away' from themselves, rather than destroy him?

[David from New Bern]

Has anybody on the forum read and researched this "Holy Koran" enough to help me locate and be able to cite textual proof that it is a call to violence in the name of Allah? I have found several hints of that in a brief scan. This is important to my 15year old son to answer intellectually this instructor who is molding yooung minds.

The title of your thread would lead me to think that you were looking for proof that Islam is peaceful but here you ask for proof that Islam is violent. To be fair, shouldn't you be interested in both? If not, you're no better than the teacher.

It sounds like you already had your mind made up on the issue--before proof.

Copper Scroll...thanks for staying true to your MO. Few people stick to a principles of their self-imposed rules of engagement. Perhaps I was not clear enough in my title or the body of my post. But, I was not looking for discussion or argument but information. I have read and studied enough in world history courses to firmly know it as a purely a false religion in theory and in practice. I know it as ignorance to protray Allah as being synonymous with Jehovah. And have read and conversed with muslims to know firsthand many things. I have even been a guest at a Mosque in Raleigh, NC. My post was a request overnight in a rush to find textual addresses for citing. My method of proof has always been to use the literature of the cult itself to undermine its professed truths, not what critics have determined. So in all fairness, I am already convinced of the deception and danger of Islam. And see the contemporary facade "of peaceful people" as a lie of the devil or political compromise. President Bush and our governement or either ignorant or posturing.

[Parmaynu]

Has anybody on the forum read and researched this "Holy Koran" enough to help me locate and be able to cite textual proof that it is a call to violence in the name of Allah? I have found several hints of that in a brief scan. This is important to my 15year old son to answer intellectually this instructor who is molding yooung minds.

The title of your thread would lead me to think that you were looking for proof that Islam is peaceful but here you ask for proof that Islam is violent. To be fair, shouldn't you be interested in both? If not, you're no better than the teacher.

It sounds like you already had your mind made up on the issue--before proof.

Copper Scroll...thanks for staying true to your MO. Few people stick to a principles of their self-imposed rules of engagement. Perhaps I was not clear enough in my title or the body of my post. But, I was not looking for discussion or argument but information. I have read and studied enough in world history courses to firmly know it as a purely a false religion in theory and in practice. I know it as ignorance to protray Allah as being synonymous with Jehovah. And have read and conversed with muslims to know firsthand many things. I have even been a guest at a Mosque in Raleigh, NC. My post was a request overnight in a rush to find textual addresses for citing. My method of proof has always been to use the literature of the cult itself to undermine its professed truths, not what critics have determined. So in all fairness, I am already convinced of the deception and danger of Islam. And see the contemporary facade "of peaceful people" as a lie of the devil or political compromise. President Bush and our governement or either ignorant or posturing.

I don't think it particularly matters whether you were looking for discussion or mere information. Clearly certain people disagree with your views on Islam and took it upon themselves to provide you with an alternative perspective, and why shouldn't they?

Perhaps because you are 'already convinced of the deception and danger of Islam' i.e. inserting both fingers into your ears and singing LALALALA I AM NOT LISTENING LALALA very loudly?

Whether you were looking for discussion or not it has found you. Therefore I would appreciate it if you would respond to my query: is 'the literature of the cult' really the best source of information? Perhaps (as I suggested) the views of actual Muslims would be a better place to start?