Our Freewills

[Marnie]

Isaiah-smiles,

My friend I am a Jew...if any race knows about G-d's Sovereignty, it's us. The two concepts; G-d's Sovereignty and man's free will are NOT mutually exclusive. Man is free to do what he chooses and face the consequences of his decisions. At the same time, G-d can and does interject Himself in the affairs of man from time to time to do as He pleases for His purposes. I don't have a problem with that; the Bible is quite clear on point. Man's free will must always operate within the bounds of G-d's ultimate will for mankind.

I'm not going to comment on most of your post; it was well written and thought out. We just have different conclusions. In fact, my comments have probably already crossed your mind anyway. This comment was interesting, though:

One thing i've noticed about people adhering to the notion of a "free will" before salvation are the same ones who mistakenly think that they can "pluck" themselves out of God's hands once they are saved (free will). They do not believe in the security of salvation. It's not a question of whether you lost your salvation, but rather, you need to ask yourself wether you were ever saved or not.

I have debated the issue of Eternal Security ad nauseum at another forum (bet you're all surprised at that!), and, as I stated before, smarter minds than ours have debated it for centuries, so I doubt very much you will say anything I haven't read before and vice versa. The Bible, in fact, has verses to support both views. I am one of those deluded people who believes in Eternal Security as long as I want it. I believe if at some point for some reason I decide to walk away from G-d, He will allow me to do so, but I will suffer the eternal consequences. I do NOT believe one can lose their salvation, but I believe they can give it back of their own accord.

I can see the smoke coming out of your ears, so calm down. And your response has already crossed my mind, too, so don't waste your time, you won't change my opinion.

[Marnie]

Dear sweet Marnie

thank you once more for your kind fellowship. and I know the things you say once again are true and right and I have practiced them through the years but still I need to be reminded of them. When I read through this response I pictured myself getting up one morning and just plum forgot to put on the shield of faith that day and wham I got hit with those fiery darts because of my slackness. I guess when push comes to shove it is really fear that I will not survive this attack of the enemy for it got the better of me in my earlier walk with the Lord and now I'm flooded with it all over again maybe because it didn't all get closure to it all back then I'm not sure why and I know you have no idea of what I'm rattle off about but I'm rattling just the same. I'll try to heed to this advice and counsel of yours doing double time duty on it to keep the right focus through this wrestling match. I don't want to crumble and fall apart and I do want his will over my free will. God bless you

Openly Curious

OC,

One thing I am sure of: G-d has never failed me, though I have failed Him many times. I am so thankful He knows my hearts' desire is to live for Him even though, when He sees some of the things I do, it looks like the exact opposite. So many times I feel like Paul struggling with wanting to do the right thing yet following the flesh. The "old man" of Romans 6 keeps wanting to rise from the dead, even though he was destroyed on the Cross.

Our best example of G-d's will triumphing over our wills is Jesus Christ. He had to submit to the will of the Father even though He knew it meant His death upon the Cross. But He did the will of the Father because He also saw His ultimate victory and what that would mean for sinful man. I find if I can keep my eyes focused on MY ultimate victory (a place in heaven, standing shoulder to shoulder with my Savior) that helps me overcome the will of the flesh. But as always, the blood of Christ has never lost its power and when I do sin, I know He is faithful and just to forgive me.

[Openly Curious]

Marnie

I think you are the smarest and wisest person I've had the priveledge of talking with thus far on this subject and to my personal struggles as well. It helps to identify with Christ suffering on the cross as He was broken and bruised for us personally. Knowing that doesn't take the current suffering and struggles away from me but it does ever so "comfort" my heart and mind which I need so much during this particular time. thank you for your extended hand for I took hold.

God Bless Always

Openly Curious

[EricH]

My take is that the only humans with absolutely Free Will were Adam and Eve. When they chose sin, Free Will was made impossible due to depravity

Hello 'EricH'

I like the way you put it concerning Adam and Eve before the fall took place as being "absolutely" free will. I agree with that cause they only knew good and therefore could only choose good in their wills. but it's after the fall their wills were taken captive and they then knew good and evil as their eyes were opened and they became slaves to sin as well as the whole human race. But is it that we get our freewills back when we get set free in Christ to freely and absolutely exercise our freewills once again and how does this if it does all line up with God's word. I think st.worm is a catholic I'm not sure of what he was referring to referencing Luther. I'm just trying to learn is all put 2 and 2 together hoping I'll finally come up with 4 for once. God bless

OC

My take is that at redemption we begin the process of getting our free wills back (sanctification) which will be completed when we are completely redeemed in eternity

[EricH]

The fact the at the Great White Throne Judgment unrepentant sinners will be judged according to their works would indicate that man does indeed have a free will. The notion that man cannot have a free will because of G-d's forknowledge is a false conclusion; foreknowledge is passive, G-d simply knows the direction you will take, He does not force anybody to do anything.

The problem is that the language is stronger in many of the passages that speak of God's foreknowledge. It actually involves a pre-choice on God's part that must be wrestled wit for a complete understanding

[Marnie]

The problem is that the language is stronger in many of the passages that speak of God's foreknowledge. It actually involves a pre-choice on God's part that must be wrestled wit for a complete understanding

Eric, my good friend, my wrestling days are over; I know what I believe, and I know in Whom I believe. When I assert that G-d's forknowledge is "passive," by that I mean He simply knows the direction I will go, He does NOT force me to go in a particular direction. It is true that from time to time He will use providence (circumstances and/or people) to guide a person in His way. Ruth is an excellent example of that. She "found herself" at the field G-d wanted her to be at. Some would view that as a coinicidence. I do not believe in coincidences. On the other hand, I do not believe G-d does that all the time. If that were the case, I would do His will 100% of the time, and I certainly cannot claim that!

Many references to "G-d hardening a heart," for example, are what some, including myself, consider to be Hebraisms. That is, the curious habit Jews have of ascribing every single act--both good and bad--to G-d. To the Jew looking on, G-d indeed hardened Pharaoh's heart, for example. The reality is, Pharaoh hardened his own heart by choosing to go against Almighty G-d. Of course G-d knew what Pharaoh would do, He is omniscient, after all. But to suggest G-d makes a person do evil is beyond heresy, in my opinion. James says as much:

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: (James 1:13).

James goes on to nail down the culprit:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (James 1:14, 15).

[Marnie]

Marnie

I think you are the smarest and wisest person I've had the priveledge of talking with thus far on this subject and to my personal struggles as well. It helps to identify with Christ suffering on the cross as He was broken and bruised for us personally. Knowing that doesn't take the current suffering and struggles away from me but it does ever so "comfort" my heart and mind which I need so much during this particular time. thank you for your extended hand for I took hold.

God Bless Always

Openly Curious

Thank you for those kind words. I need to forward them on to my father so he can appreciate all the money he spent on my education. The reality is, I am not wise, not by a long shot. The Lord has been very gracious in sending truly wise people across my path; some of them right here at Worthy!

I am also naive enough to believe that most of all the answers to our questions are to be found in the Bible, if we would but open our eyes and read it.

[Openly Curious]

Marnie

I again agree the answers are there and I believe they are in the bible just got to keep seeking until I find that which I need. I've worn 4 bibles out since I become a believer and was given a brand new one on valentines day to wear out and it smells so good the new leather on it. without the word of God i would totally be in sain for real.

for I found these words today while reading

Proverbs 13:7, (vs12,-sick-desire, 19a-desire-), vs14-the word, vs17-health

you do both your earthly father and your heavenly father proud

Openly Curious

[chrismarc]

Eric said,

My take is that the only humans with absolutely Free Will were Adam and Eve. When they chose sin, Free Will was made impossible due to depravity.

Nope. All are born with free will. God created man a rational being,

conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control

his own actions. "God willed that man should be left in the hand of his

own counsel," so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and

freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him. (Sir. 15:14)

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is

master over his acts. Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to

act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions

on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human

freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it

attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good

which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil,

and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom

characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame,

merit or reproach.

The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no

true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice

to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to

"the slavery of sin." (Rom. 6:17) Freedom makes man responsible

for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary. Every act directly

willed is imputable to its author:

Thus the Lord asked Eve after the sin in the garden:

"What is this that you have done?" (Gen. 3:13)

He asked Cain the same question.(Gen. 4:10)

The prophet Nathan questioned David in the same way after he

committed adultery with the wife of Uriah and had him murdered.(2 Sam 12:7-15)

Man's freedom is limited and fallible. In fact, man failed. He freely sinned.

By refusing God's plan of love, he deceived himself and became a slave to sin.

By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them

from the sin that held them in bondage.

"For freedom Christ has set us free." (Gal 5:1)

In him we have communion with the "truth that makes us free."(Jn 8:32)

The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches,

"Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."(2 Cor 3:17)

Already we glory in the "liberty of the children of God."(Rom 8:21)

The grace of Christ is not in the slightest way a rival of our freedom

when this freedom accords with the sense of the true and the good that

God has put in the human heart. On the contrary, as Christian experience

attests especially in prayer, the more docile we are to the promptings of

grace, the more we grow in inner freedom and confidence during trials,

such as those we face in the pressures and constraints of the outer world.

By the working of grace the Holy Spirit educates us in spiritual freedom

in order to make us free collaborators in his work in the Church and in the world:

Almighty and merciful God,

in your goodness take away from us all that is harmful,

so that, made ready both in mind and body,

we may freely accomplish your will. Amen.

[chrismarc]

I will only say that even though the Bible is inerrant and infallable we can learn much about the Bible from great teachers, men who devoted their entire lives to God's Word. Luther, though not inerrant, is certainly one of those men. I know I would certainly never pretend to be able to understand the Bible without men like him and others offering guidance and insight. SW

Learning from others is fine if they have the truth - Luther took the

truth and twisted it to his thinkings, deleted 7 books from the Bible

and split off from Christ's Holy Church, which stands still today, as

promised by Jesus. (Mt. 16:18) Me, i prefer to follow Christ through

His teachings as infallibly interpreted by His Church.