Our Freewills

[EricH]

Eric, my good friend, my wrestling days are over; I know what I believe, and I know in Whom I believe.

I guess my take on this is that I am never through learning. I agree with you that I know my redeemer and am sure of my salvation (that is the context of the quote you provided). But the depths of his attributes are an endless well that I could study for the rest of my life and continue to learn new things. For a person to say they have a complete handle on everything there is to know about God, and not be open to things they had not yet considered is dangerous.

Many references to "G-d hardening a heart," for example, are what some, including myself, consider to be Hebraisms.

This really does not prove anything. Others don't consider them to be Hebraisms. In addition there are direct statements in the New Testament where greek words are used that have a stronger force than simply to know in advance. To simply dismiss anything that causes trouble for you as a Hebraism is not the best approach.

But to suggest G-d makes a person do evil is beyond heresy, in my opinion. James says as much:

The James passages do not actually speak to predestination, but to temptation. God can achieve His purposes without doing the actual tempting. All James maintains is that God is not the responsible moral agent (the tempter).

Here is an example from the OT that appears to contradict some of what you are saying:

Israel was fobidden by God to take a census. It would be sin for them. However we read this is 2 Samuel 24:1

Now again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."

2 Samuel 24:1 NASB

The Hebrew word for Gods anger is in the 3rd person masculine singular. The verb for "incited" is in the hiphil imperfect 3rd person maculine singular apocopated.

All this parsing means that it was the anger of God that was the motivating factor that caused God to incite David to do something God had expressly forbidden him to do. God's desire was to bring judgment and He moved on David to make that possible.

In 2 Samuel 24:10 David recognizes what he has done as sin:

Now David's heart troubled him after he had numbered the people. So David said to the LORD, "I have sinned greatly in what I have done. But now, O LORD, please take away the iniquity of Thy servant, for I have acted very foolishly."

2 Samuel 24:10 NASB

Even though God moved to bring about the result, David was morally responsible.

The means that God used to incite David is spelled out in 1 Chronicles 21:1

Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel

1 Chronicles 21:1 NASB.

In this one incident we have a remarkable statement of how God's sovereignty works:

God incited David to act according to His will. In order to accomplish this He used the secondary agency of Satan to achieve His purposes. David is however still held responsible even though his will is being operated on by outside influence. Thus God is sovereign and achieves his purposes, but is not morally responsible and was not the tempting agent. He used a secondary agency to achieve His eternal purposes.

I find this statement interesting on your part:

Many references to "G-d hardening a heart," for example, are what some, including myself, consider to be Hebraisms. That is, the curious habit Jews have of ascribing every single act--both good and bad--to G-d. To the Jew looking on, G-d indeed hardened Pharaoh's heart, for example.

There is an implication here that the writer of scripture (in this case Moses) was mistaken when he recorded in scripture that God hardened pharaoh's heart. Basically this means that scripture contains error. That Moses recorded a statement about God that was not true under inspiration. This would mean that Moses was a false prophet because He attributed to God something that was not so. According to your position, the reason he mispoke is a Jewish habit of attributing everything to God even when it is not true. Since God inspired each word of scripture (verbal inspiration), I would say that Moses recorded exactly what God wanted Him to record. Namely that He hardened pharaoh's heart.

In fact, We have God Himself predicting He would do exactly that (Harden Pharaoh's heart) in Exodus 4:21 and 7:3 before the event takes place. This is not a Hebraism. It is God's actual statement about Himself regarding what He would do. So was God mistaken here as well, or did Moses misinterperet what God said to him?

[Marnie]

Wow. I am impressed. Chris, that was magnificient. Very well written. I just have one word of advice:

DUCK

[chrismarc]

We always choose what we want. The problem is that in our natural condition we have only the ability to choose the bad. To say otherwise is to deny God his glory as the real cause of our salvation by His grace.

More Lutheran error.

[Openly Curious]

Eric said,

My take is that the only humans with absolutely Free Will were Adam and Eve. When they chose sin, Free Will was made impossible due to depravity.

Nope. All are born with free will. God created man a rational being,

conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control

his own actions. "God willed that man should be left in the hand of his

own counsel," so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and

freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him. (Sir. 15:14)

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is

master over his acts. Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to

act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions

on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human

freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it

attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good

which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil,

and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom

characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame,

merit or reproach.

The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no

true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice

to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to

"the slavery of sin." (Rom. 6:17) Freedom makes man responsible

for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary. Every act directly

willed is imputable to its author:

Thus the Lord asked Eve after the sin in the garden:

"What is this that you have done?" (Gen. 3:13)

He asked Cain the same question.(Gen. 4:10)

The prophet Nathan questioned David in the same way after he

committed adultery with the wife of Uriah and had him murdered.(2 Sam 12:7-15)

Man's freedom is limited and fallible. In fact, man failed. He freely sinned.

By refusing God's plan of love, he deceived himself and became a slave to sin.

By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them

from the sin that held them in bondage.

"For freedom Christ has set us free." (Gal 5:1)

In him we have communion with the "truth that makes us free."(Jn 8:32)

The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches,

"Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."(2 Cor 3:17)

Already we glory in the "liberty of the children of God."(Rom 8:21)

The grace of Christ is not in the slightest way a rival of our freedom

when this freedom accords with the sense of the true and the good that

God has put in the human heart. On the contrary, as Christian experience

attests especially in prayer, the more docile we are to the promptings of

grace, the more we grow in inner freedom and confidence during trials,

such as those we face in the pressures and constraints of the outer world.

By the working of grace the Holy Spirit educates us in spiritual freedom

in order to make us free collaborators in his work in the Church and in the world:

Almighty and merciful God,

in your goodness take away from us all that is harmful,

so that, made ready both in mind and body,

we may freely accomplish your will. Amen.

Openly Curious

This is all very interestinggg and i see that man has a free will from the very start as man was created a three part being body, soul, (this is our intellect or our freewill part of us where we make deciscions at right) and our spirit. I am to tired to comment further right now but see what you have said thus far on what I've commented on if able will comment later some more. God bless

OC

[Openly Curious]

I will only say that even though the Bible is inerrant and infallable we can learn much about the Bible from great teachers, men who devoted their entire lives to God's Word. Luther, though not inerrant, is certainly one of those men. I know I would certainly never pretend to be able to understand the Bible without men like him and others offering guidance and insight. SW

Learning from others is fine if they have the truth - Luther took the

truth and twisted it to his thinkings, deleted 7 books from the Bible

and split off from Christ's Holy Church, which stands still today, as

promised by Jesus. (Mt. 16:18) Me, i prefer to follow Christ through

His teachings as infallibly interpreted by His Church.

100%

OC

[EricH]

Eric said,

My take is that the only humans with absolutely Free Will were Adam and Eve. When they chose sin, Free Will was made impossible due to depravity.

Nope. All are born with free will. God created man a rational being,

conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control

his own actions. "God willed that man should be left in the hand of his

own counsel," so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and

freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him. (Sir. 15:14)

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is

master over his acts. Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to

act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions

on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human

freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it

attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good

which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil,

and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom

characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame,

merit or reproach.

The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no

true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice

to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to

"the slavery of sin." (Rom. 6:17) Freedom makes man responsible

for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary. Every act directly

willed is imputable to its author:

Thus the Lord asked Eve after the sin in the garden:

"What is this that you have done?" (Gen. 3:13)

He asked Cain the same question.(Gen. 4:10)

The prophet Nathan questioned David in the same way after he

committed adultery with the wife of Uriah and had him murdered.(2 Sam 12:7-15)

Man's freedom is limited and fallible. In fact, man failed. He freely sinned.

By refusing God's plan of love, he deceived himself and became a slave to sin.

By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them

from the sin that held them in bondage.

"For freedom Christ has set us free." (Gal 5:1)

In him we have communion with the "truth that makes us free."(Jn 8:32)

The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches,

"Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."(2 Cor 3:17)

Already we glory in the "liberty of the children of God."(Rom 8:21)

The grace of Christ is not in the slightest way a rival of our freedom

when this freedom accords with the sense of the true and the good that

God has put in the human heart. On the contrary, as Christian experience

attests especially in prayer, the more docile we are to the promptings of

grace, the more we grow in inner freedom and confidence during trials,

such as those we face in the pressures and constraints of the outer world.

By the working of grace the Holy Spirit educates us in spiritual freedom

in order to make us free collaborators in his work in the Church and in the world:

Almighty and merciful God,

in your goodness take away from us all that is harmful,

so that, made ready both in mind and body,

we may freely accomplish your will. Amen.

I am assuming you are Catholic and view the church as the arbiter of truth

[Marnie]

Eric,

I am a life long learner and never claimed to have a corner on the truth. You mistake confidence with arrogance. The reason I am confident is because I searched the Scriptures myself, and do not simply repeat with I have heard preached.

For an excellent treatment on David's census and the "G-d/Satan" controversy, I would direct you an issue 10 of Trinity Journal, an article by John Sailhamer entitled "A Case For Inter-biblical Interpretation." At this point in Jewish theology, they did not have fully developed doctrine of a personal devil. The word "satan" used in the Chronicles passage simply means "the adversary." It wasn't until much later that Jewish thought and theology realized the existance of a personal devil. That is why both good and bad were attributed to G-d. Now, that is not to say that G-d did not send plagues and various judgments, for we know that He did. So, one could argue that being out of G-d's will, He was now David's adversdary.

Jewish thought and culture (Hebraism) must of necessity be taken into consideration when achieving a balanced interpreation of the OT. It cannot be understood apart from it. Further, one must also understand that the NT sheds much light on difficult passages. In the case of Pharaoh's hard heart, we are told that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all in 1 John 1:5. James also says, Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.(James 1:17). If we believe G-d cannot act outside His essential Nature, which is perfect, then to insinuate that He would cause someone's heart to harden is unthinkable.

Your observation about the James passage is quite correct; it is about temptation and not predestination. My point in raising it was that the Lord, by sheer force of His will, does not cause a person to give into the temptation, He simply knows whether or not he will. To be otherwise makes G-d into a jester, a cruel Being who holds out a temptation with no possibility that the poor sucker being tempted can resist! My G-d is not given to fraternity pranks like that.

Your last point about Moses misquoting G-d is funny. Of course he didn't misquote the Lord. I believe in the verbal, plenary inspiration of Scripture; it is not in error. It is, however, a book steeped in Jewish culture, especially the OT. It was written by the Jews, in this case Moses, and it follows that G-d would communicate in such a way as His people would understand.

[Marnie]

I am assuming you are Catholic and view the church as the arbiter of truth

Truth is where you find it, even in the Catholic church (on rare occassions).

[Openly Curious]

'chrismarc'

The grace of Christ is not in the slightest way a rival of our freedom

when this freedom accords with the sense of the true and the good that

God has put in the human heart. On the contrary, as Christian experience

attests especially in prayer, the more docile we are to the promptings of

grace, the more we grow in inner freedom and confidence during trials,

such as those we face in the pressures and constraints of the outer world.

By the working of grace the Holy Spirit educates us in spiritual freedom

in order to make us free collaborators in his work in the Church and in the world

Openly Curious

Please tell me more if ye can my Catholic brother about grace not being a rival with freedom or free will my heart hungers so just to know these things in which you speak and I've read this quote several times but it leaves me wanting more. thanks

OC

[Openly Curious]

'Marnie'

Jewish thought and culture (Hebraism) must of necessity be taken into consideration when achieving a balanced interpreation of the OT. It cannot be understood apart from it. Further, one must also understand that the NT sheds much light on difficult passages. In the case of Pharaoh's hard heart, we are told that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all in 1 John 1:5. James also says, Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.(James 1:17). If we believe G-d cannot act outside His essential Nature, which is perfect, then to insinuate that He would cause someone's heart to harden is unthinkable.

Openly Curious

This is the point I was seeing in the thread I started on will God answer an unrighteous (wrong ) prayer God will not act in my opinion either outside of His essential Nature as there is no evil or wickedness in God He is a Holy and just God. So God would never ever answer or grant an evil prayer request to anyone. That would be like God joining himself to evil right.

and that just want happen if it did then God no longer would be holy.

I also no that it is sin that hardens a persons heart and not God God can use whom He wills to bring about his plans whether a sinner or saint and it was sinner Pharaoh with his hard heart toward God to bring his children out. Divorce was allowed for the hardness of their hearts meaning sin which hardened the two in the marriage against one another to where they couldn't be reconciled but they needed grace to carry on but their freewills wanted their own things instead am I getting anywhere yet.

OC