Our Freewills

[Openly Curious]

I am assuming you are Catholic and view the church as the arbiter of truth

Truth is where you find it, even in the Catholic church (on rare occassions).

I agree

OC

[st. Worm]

Openly Curious asks:

st.worm

could you eloborate more on what you mean in having only the ability to choose the bad.

SW answer:

Although not all inclusive you might consider for starters:

Genesis 6:5, The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Jeremiah 17:9, "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked, Who can know it?"

Romans 3 with Paul explaining man's depravity using the authority of the Old Testament, "There is none righteous, no not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God .... There is none who does any good, no, not one."

John 6:44, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him."

[Openly Curious]

Openly Curious asks:

st.worm

could you eloborate more on what you mean in having only the ability to choose the bad.

SW answer:

Although not all inclusive you might consider for starters:

Genesis 6:5, The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Jeremiah 17:9, "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked, Who can know it?"

Romans 3 with Paul explaining man's depravity using the authority of the Old Testament, "There is none righteous, no not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God .... There is none who does any good, no, not one."

John 6:44, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him."

Openly curious

if you say we only choose bad and not good alway what about the scripture in John 6:44 you used that no man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. Well wouldn't that be man choosing a good and right thing if they come to God when they are drawn if man was only capable of choosing the bad how can that be reconciled when we make right choices in life I know I have made good and bad choices in life being both a sinner and a saint

OC

[st. Worm]

OC,

The verses in question support the idea of total depravity and that unregenerate man (those not born again by the Spirit) cannot chose the good, cannot believe the gospel. That is the point of John 6:44. Only the born again or those with a new heart can believe in Jesus. The rebirth comes from without, by the Holy Spirit, not from within, not by our so-called free wlll.

sw

[Openly Curious]

sw

but we still got to come to him before he does the work in us right that is a good choice of freewill in a sinful state. I come of my own freewill being still a sinner then repent of my past sins confess with my mouth and then I'm save through faith by grace. I don't see how you can reasonably nor logically say we can't make good choices while we are yet sinners.

oc

[Marnie]

OC,

The verses in question support the idea of total depravity and that unregenerate man (those not born again by the Spirit) cannot chose the good, cannot believe the gospel. That is the point of John 6:44. Only the born again or those with a new heart can believe in Jesus. The rebirth comes from without, by the Holy Spirit, not from within, not by our so-called free wlll.

sw

You raise good points. In regards to total depravity, that is true in so far as man can do nothing to save himself. Of course he can still choose to do "good things," sinners do that all the time for heaven's sake. But none of those righteous acts can redeem a person. Your other comment begs the question: what comes first...belief in Jesus or a new heart. According to the testimony of the Demons, they knew who Jesus was, and Jesus Himself said they believe in Him and tremble. So it is obvious belief alone does not constitute salvation; something else has to happen, and you are right, our free will does not change our heart. It does, however, allow G-d to change our hearts. Christ died on the Cross for all men, but only those who by their own free will, hear the call of the Spirit and respond to Him, will be able to appropriate all that Christ did for them on that Cross.

Both Calvinism and Arminianism have their good points and bad. But they are both man made doctrines and not doctrines of Scripture. I fear proponents of both sides forget that.

[st. Worm]

Marnie said:

"Of course he can still choose to do "good things," sinners do that all the time for heaven's sake".

SW response:

I think we have been through this Marnie. The "good" that unbelievers do is good only in our eyes, civil righteousness. It is not good to God. Bill Gates and Ted Turner give millions to charity but God is not impressed.

Also, sound doctrine that is from Scripture is not really "man-made" as you say. The idea of man's depravity and sin is straight from the Bible and was taught by the great men of the Church including, Augustine, Luther and Calvin. There is a view by some Christians who are extremists in a strange form of fundamentalism that says if something is not word for word out of the Bible then its not biblical. Heretics who reject the Trinity see Scripture that way. I hope that is not what you are advocating. Doctrine is what we believe the Bible to say. Obviously there is sound doctrine and bad doctrine but you can't just reject that which you disagree with by dismissing it as "mad made".

SW

[st. Worm]

OC says:

but we still got to come to him before he does the work in us right that is a good choice of freewill in a sinful state. I come of my own freewill being still a sinner then repent of my past sins confess with my mouth and then I'm save through faith by grace. I don't see how you can reasonably nor logically say we can't make good choices while we are yet sinners.

SW says:

In my view (and the view of the greatest teachers of Scripture including Jesus and St. Paul) God must act in us first. We do not become born again by choosing to do so of our will. God acts and grants us faith and by the power of the Gospel we believe. That is grace. That is why Jesus uses the idea of new birth when explaining to Nicodemas. Who chooses to be born much less born again?

[Openly Curious]

'st. Worm'

SW response:

I think we have been through this Marnie. The "good" that unbelievers do is good only in our eyes, civil righteousness. It is not good to God. Bill Gates and Ted Turner give millions to charity but God is not impressed.

Openly Curious

I think good is good and bad is bad no matter if the sinners do it or the saints do it and none of our good saves us nor will bring salvation to our hearts. I think even the saints righteousness (good) when they get saved is only filthy rags when we get into his prescence woe is me everytime.

SW

Also, sound doctrine that is from Scripture is not really "man-made" as you say.

OC

sound doctrine to me is that which stops the gainsayers that which cannot be refuted that which makes the puzzle fit all together that which will save both the hearers and the one who is preaching the doctrine for it is "sound" solid speech that cannot be denied.

SW

Obviously there is sound doctrine and bad doctrine but you can't just reject that which you disagree with by dismissing it as "mad made".

OC

Sure I can if I don't think it is sound doctrine that is taught in the bible or can't be backed up in the bible it is called "freewill" to accept or reject things that I perceive to be wrong.

[Openly Curious]

SW says:

In my view (and the view of the greatest teachers of Scripture including Jesus and St. Paul) God must act in us first. We do not become born again by choosing to do so of our will. God acts and grants us faith and by the power of the Gospel we believe. That is grace. That is why Jesus uses the idea of new birth when explaining to Nicodemas. Who chooses to be born much less born again?

OC

Hasn't God dealt to everyman a measure of faith sinners and saints alike I don't think anyone can be drawn of God if it wasn't for that fact alone we simply wouldn't be drawn or respond to God. I don't even think I could have been saved on my own but God give me a measure of faith to act upon the salvation message that the preacher was preaching. And at the preaching of the word my little measure of faith as a sinner grew as I was listening and started to believe that even I could be saved and my "freewill" lead me to altar.