Our Freewills

[st. Worm]

Butero says:

"If this were not possible, wouldn't the whole temptation have been an exercise in futility?"

SW asks:

So, you are seriously saying something could have foiled God's plan and that he only knew Jesus would die on the cross because of foreknowledge? Doesn't sound like much of a God to me if that's the case. Hardly worthy of our worship.

And apparently you also seem to be saying it is possible for God to sin and yield to temptation (unless in your religion Jesus is not God)?

[Openly Curious]

OC says:

my scriptural basis is Romans 12:3 "according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith" for these are my father's words and I believe them. If you think me a heretic so be it for I think things also. I think as a teacher you may be falling terribly in winning a student but now I think you lost one for good."

SW says:

OC, I have not accepted you as a student so therefore I have not really lost you. Also the verse you quote to prove that every person has been granted faith you have taken completely out of context. The issue Paul is talking about here is faith in correlation to the spiritual gifts imparted to the believers he is addressing. He is not talking about justifying faith here at all. You should not just pull individual verses out without considering the context in which they are written. We are not saved because we reach a certain level of faith.

SW

OC

then don't condemn me if I don't learn anything from you then

[st. Worm]

"It is done by what church? Did the church get together as a whole and take a vote? Is that how we determine a heresy?"

So Butero, does your church have no standards for doctrine whatsover? If I was a member of your church and decided that God was a circus clown with a big red nose who wore funny hats and floppy shoes would that be a problem? Would the elders of your church and your denomination seek to change my view or would they continue fellowship with me because its ok for believers to do their own thing. How about if I decided I could divorce and remarry over and over again just because my wives could not cook meals to my satisfaction? Would your church have any authority over me in terms of providing discipline or would they just let it go if I truly believed that my divorces were biblical?

[chrismarc]

Oc said,

It was magnificient I don't care where it come from. But I so hungered for more of that truth but I see you couldn't or wouldn't explain it to me. So you lost me as student too.

Geesh, give me a chance.... we all hunger for the Truth.

Do you still want me to reply or is it too late?

May i direct you to the source of Truth - the Church:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

[chrismarc]

Eric said,

I am assuming you are Catholic and view the church as the arbiter of truth.

.... As Scriptures tell us....

No actually they do not. But lets not morph this thread into a Catholic apologetic. There are numerous threads here regarding the beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church and their scriptural correctness. Do a search for them and add to them if you wish. My point in asking if you were a Catholic...

What, so now you know i'm Catholic so my views are not

permitted on a thread? i have to post only on "RCC only"

threads? Are you unwilling to respond here?

[st. Worm]

"Yes, Jesus could have yielded to sin, but he didn't. If he couldn't have yielded to sin, then why would the devil waste his time tempting him?"

You have just stated that God could have sinned and the reason why he could have sinned was because the devil would not have bothered to tempt Him if he could not have sinned. Do you often follow the devil's logic? You and I obviously worship a different God if you truly believe God can commit sin. End of story.

[chrismarc]

[st. Worm]

"That is not the point. The point is that a Baptist church might consider a Pentecostal Church heretical for speaking in tongues. Meanwhile, a Pentecostal Church might consider a Baptist Church heretical for believing in unconditional eternal security. Every church has different doctrinal positions, so my question is what makes you the authority of who is in heresy? Why is your opinion, or that of your church's of any more value than the opinion of someone you may consider in heresy. In all likelihood, they consider you a heretic."

Wrong. No church has ever been condemned as heretical for claiming that speaking in tongues is still for the present day. There is a big difference between claiming someone has bad doctrine and claiming they are committing heresy. Every difference is doctrine is not heresy and I am not aware that any real Christian church claims that.

Now please feel free to answer the questions I posed to you.

SW

[st. Worm]

"A person that continues to divorce and re-marry for unbiblical reasons should be put out of the church"

And who asks them to leave and by what authority? You have implied that the church has no authority in matters such as heresy. Is heresy not sin?

SW

[chrismarc]

Marnie said,

What about doctrine that is in Bible, but not believed by all?

Example please?

Infant baptism, Jesus as Eucharist, Communion of Saints,

Baptism=Born Again, Salvation not a one-time deal, authority

of the Church, etc...in short, why are there so many different

beliefs derived from the same Scriptures?

I can't answer why some people dont understand the plain meaning of Scripture. As a Roman Catholic, your church was notorious for keeping the bible from the common folk and told that only the priest can understand it.

The Church has always been the guardian of the Scriptures,

especially the 1st 1400 years or so, as there were very few

manuscripts. And it's not the priest who interprets, but the

Church in union with the pope.

...what my pastor taught me, if it's not in the Bible, amounts to nothing.

Then aren't you letting your pastor do the thinking?

How come he's right and another pastor is wrong?

Is the Holy Spirit confused?