neo-pharisees

[Rober H]

Speaking against false prophets and witchcraft in the bible is nothing knew and the bible oft times names the names of those who promote heresey as well as their errors.

Acts 13:8-11 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.

I am still waiting for the truth of this to be refuted by scripture.

And

apothanein kerdos,

"Sighing" is not an argument or a very intelligent rebuttle.

The bible names name as well as preaching against false doctrine.

This is an irrefutable fact.

In His word,

Robert

[Kabowd]

Weird, our posts are here twice

Anyway, as I've stated repeatedly now...no one is arguing that false doctrine/teachers shouldn't be exposed. I don't agree with TBN or much of what they air, and I bring this to light whenever it is relevant. The problem I'm having with this topic is that it has become nothing more than a witch hunt and a lynching. It's like, everyone gather around and listen to how awful this person or that person is. It's pointless. Your lack of grace and love does not open people up to the truth. Even though many of the things you say are true, why would anyone care or listen when you come off like a group of people gathered around ready to witness a stoning?

Should we expose false doctrine and teachers? Absolutely. But there is a time, place and way to go about doing it. Here's a few tips:

1. Discern that the time is right. You can speak volumes of truth, but if you have bad timing it's simply wasted breath.

2. Discern that the person you're discussing it with is receptive to the truth. If they aren't open and the time isn't right, then you're only casting your pearls before swine.

3. Humility. Remember that the sin of others is no more vile than your own.

4. Grace and love should always be combined with truth. There should be no hint of being bloodthirsty. Especially when correcting others, or correcting error in doctrine, if we lack grace and love our words become like a loud noise and are rendered useless.

5. We should never let ourselves become more obssessed with exposing the sin of others than we are with probing our own hearts and correcting our own failures.

6. We should never take delight in exposing the sins of others. This is one of the reasons this topic disturbs me. It's gone from simply stating some errors and correcting them, to repeatedly bashing on individuals in particular. It's gone on for pages now and enough if enough.

The defensiveness and playing the martyr is getting old too. Just because a couple of us have come in to wave the caution flag does not mean you have to play the victim and counter-attack. Instead of taking offense, why not just heed the advice to use discernment? That's all we've been saying. If you would't be so hasty to point fingers, you might notice that we haven't disagreed with alot of the content, but it's mostly been in the lack of discernment and restraint with words.

[Kabowd]

I am still waiting for the truth of this to be refuted by scripture.

For one, LIKE I KEEP SAYING, it's not that we disagree that false teachers and doctrine should be exposed. WE GET THAT. But there is a TIME, PLACE, and WAY to go about doing it. For goodness sakes, dude, when you have people who agree with your point asking you to chill that should tell you something. If we agree on the issue of exposing false doctrine and yet we're telling you it's time to let it rest...imagine the one's who don't even agree that they should be exposed.

Use discernment, k? Remember who you're trying to reach and whether or not they are open to what you're saying. This is one of the key points you seem to be missing here. Going on and on and on and on and on and on is overkill. It turns people off to what you're saying altogether. People are much more open to listening to someone who is balanced, humble enough to admit their own faults and willing to listen..than they are someone who seems to take sheer delight in just airing someone else's dirty laundry and chucking stones one right after another.

[Rober H]

Many heresies being preached by those who call those of us who expose false doctrines names such as heresey hunters and Neo-Pharisees are using mixtures of heresies from the past and re-packaging them.

Here is what John MacArthur states.

"...Word-Faith teachers owe their ancestry to groups like Christian Science, Swedenborgianism, Theosophy, Science of Mind, and New Thought--not to classical Pentecostalism. It reveals that at their very core, Word-Faith teachings are corrupt. Their undeniable derivation is cultish, not Christian. The sad truth is that the gospel proclaimed by the Word-Faith movement is not the gospel of the New Testament. Word-Faith doctrine is a mongrel system, a blend of mysticism, dualism, and gnosticism that borrows generously from the teachings of the metaphysical cults. "

(John MacArthur, Charismatic Chaos, page 352)

There are many ways to divert the focus of a topic and this thread proves it.

[Kabowd]

And another thing, there have been topics started before about Jessica Simpson, Benny Hinn, etc, etc....and those topics all ended being closed. Why? Because, while the content may have been true, it just shows a lack of grace and love to devote entire topics to "exposing" someone. The initial intention may be sincere, but if we aren't careful they quickly turn into mobs of just bashing on someone and it should not be tolerated. This doesn't mean they weren't true, it just means they weren't necessary and they didn't benefit the body.

We have a difficult enough time showing the world that we belong to God. We don't need to add to it by coming off like a bunch of bloodthirsty vulchers circling around the wounded. The world already knows that there is disunity within the body, and attacking one another publicly doesn't help to correct that. The Scripture teaches that they will know us by our love. Maybe if we put more effort into that, there would be less of a need to "expose" everyone else.

[Rober H]

I see. Thank you.

With regard to the issue of naming names. If there were no naming of names how could the church be sufficiently warned?

This question by Ovedya is really the crux of the issue.

Speaking for myself I will continue to bring the focus back to this and the fact that when a person tries to expose specific heresies and the people that promote them tactics are used by people like Paul Crouch to take the focus off the heretic and the heresey and place the focus on the one pointing out the error.

Here is why topics like this are important.

http://www.myfortress.org/WordofFaith.html

"While the Faith movement is undeniably cultic, and particular groups within the movement are clearly cults, it should be pointed out that there are many sincere, born-again believers within the movement. I cannot overemphasize this crucial point. These believers, for the most part, seem to be wholly unaware of the movement's cultic theology."

(Hank Hanegraaff, "Foreword." D. R. McConnell, A Different Gospel, page xii)

[apothanein kerdos]

"Sighing" is not an argument or a very intelligent rebuttle.

Neither is refusing to respond to objections brought up against what you are saying.

You once again show us your Purtain witch hunting tactics in providing a straw man to make my position, and then state that I am against speaking out against heresy. Either you are incapable of comprehending the English language, or you are doing this on purpose. Either way, you are showing that you are no better than the people you criticize because you use the same tactics to push a person out of the discussion and into a label group. I stated:

IF you attack the beliefs and then point out people who teach these beliefs, people begin to draw their own conclusions. Right now they know Benny Hinn is bad. Wonderful. So someone comes along who is a watered down version and teaches the same junk and it's back to square one. If you, however, teach that the doctrine of Benny Hinn is bad, then the person learning can pinpoint in the future when that teaching arises and avoid it all together. This is what the Bible does. It only mentions people and their wrong doings because the rest of the Bible has already stated that the actions on these beliefs are wrong (and the beliefs themselves).

After this, you posted:

If those of us who wish to expose error are to be labled as "neo-pharisees" heresey hunters" or being on a "witch hunt" then so be it.

This is not a response. The fact is, you have misrepresented my position ON PURPOSE because you choose nto to deal with it. It is easier to burn me if I'm a witch than to deal with the merit of what I am saying.

There is no need to be so obtuse in the way you reply. You do not need to compare me to TBN or act like I'm trying to silence you. I'm simply saying te way you approach this issue is obsessive and highly unbiblical. I have provided you reasons as to why names are named and you have ignored it. Why? Because you'd rather continue in your ways than face the fact you need to change..and it's much easier to lump me into a crowd than to actually face what I'm saying.

[Rober H]

Heresey can be repackaged and resold. The bible teaches exposing the teachings and naming the names of those responsible for the heresey. That is the rebuttle. Teach against the heresey and the heretick

The reason for doing this is summed up in the following quote:

"While the Faith movement is undeniably cultic, and particular groups within the movement are clearly cults, it should be pointed out that there are many sincere, born-again believers within the movement. I cannot overemphasize this crucial point. These believers, for the most part, seem to be wholly unaware of the movement's cultic theology."

(Hank Hanegraaff, "Foreword." D. R. McConnell, A Different Gospel, page xii)

Because the people who are promoting false doctrines like the "Word Faith" and "Prosperity gospels" are not named and spoken against it appears to many that these men and women's doctrines are biblical.

There would be no need for the bible to point out wolves if the emphasis was to be placed soley on the teaching and not the teacher.

The wolf and his practices are shown.

I have given scripture over and over again where the heretick or false prophet is named.

I will be happy to repeat them and add dozens more.

[apothanein kerdos]

Heresey can be repackaged and resold. The bible teaches exposing the teachings and naming the names of those responsible for the heresey. That is the rebuttle. Teach against the heresey and the heretick

The reason for doing this is summed up in the following quote:

"While the Faith movement is undeniably cultic, and particular groups within the movement are clearly cults, it should be pointed out that there are many sincere, born-again believers within the movement. I cannot overemphasize this crucial point. These believers, for the most part, seem to be wholly unaware of the movement's cultic theology."

(Hank Hanegraaff, "Foreword." D. R. McConnell, A Different Gospel, page xii)

Because the people who are promoting false doctrines like the "Word Faith" and "Prosperity gospels" are not named and spoken against it appears to many that these men and women's doctrines are biblical.

There would be no need for the bible to point out wolves if the emphasis was to be placed soley on the teaching and not the teacher.

The wolf and his practices are shown.

I have given scripture over and over again where the heretick or false prophet is named.

I will be happy to repeat them and add dozens more.

I am a man of my word:

If you can point to one post where I said that the emphasis was to be placed solely on teaching and that we are to completely ignore the teacher of it, I'll have you PM me your address and I will send you a personal check for $200. If I do not have the money then I will offer a public apology and recant what I have said and completely leave this thread alone.

[Kabowd]

Anyway, as I've stated repeatedly now...no one is arguing that false doctrine/teachers shouldn't be exposed. I don't agree with TBN or much of what they air, and I bring this to light whenever it is relevant. The problem I'm having with this topic is that it has become nothing more than a witch hunt and a lynching. It's like, everyone gather around and listen to how awful this person or that person is. It's pointless. Your lack of grace and love does not open people up to the truth. Even though many of the things you say are true, why would anyone care or listen when you come off like a group of people gathered around ready to witness a stoning?

Should we expose false doctrine and teachers? Absolutely. But there is a time, place and way to go about doing it. Here's a few tips:

1. Discern that the time is right. You can speak volumes of truth, but if you have bad timing it's simply wasted breath.

2. Discern that the person you're discussing it with is receptive to the truth. If they aren't open and the time isn't right, then you're only casting your pearls before swine.

3. Humility. Remember that the sin of others is no more vile than your own.

4. Grace and love should always be combined with truth. There should be no hint of being bloodthirsty. Especially when correcting others, or correcting error in doctrine, if we lack grace and love our words become like a loud noise and are rendered useless.

5. We should never let ourselves become more obssessed with exposing the sin of others than we are with probing our own hearts and correcting our own failures.

6. We should never take delight in exposing the sins of others. This is one of the reasons this topic disturbs me. It's gone from simply stating some errors and correcting them, to repeatedly bashing on individuals in particular. It's gone on for pages now and enough if enough.

The defensiveness and playing the martyr is getting old too. Just because a couple of us have come in to wave the caution flag does not mean you have to play the victim and counter-attack. Instead of taking offense, why not just heed the advice to use discernment? That's all we've been saying. If you would't be so hasty to point fingers, you might notice that we haven't disagreed with alot of the content, but it's mostly been in the lack of discernment and restraint with words.

----

I figured since everyone is just ignoring eachother and repeating themselves, I may as well join in.