The Penal Theory of the Atonement

[Faith1]

Sagz Brother,

Can you give me a brief outline of what's going on in this thread so I dont have to wade through to many posts...

In Christ

Faith1

[Faith1]

The wages of sin

[sagz4Christ]

Sagz Brother,

Can you give me a brief outline of what's going on in this thread so I dont have to wade through to many posts...

In Christ

Faith1

I don't know if you have read the original post, but let me see if I can give you a brief outline without being biased....

Endure4salvation raised the question as to whether or not the "payment" spoken of in the bible was a literal payment or a figurative one. If it was literal, then (he asks) to whom was this payment made? He also raised some more questions for those that believe in the Penal Theory of the Atonement. They are as follows:

1. How many sins did the payment cover?

2. Was it 100% of sins for everybody to ever live?

3. How is this payment applied to the believer?

godrulz said that the Penal Theory was problematic and offered the THeory of Moral Government as a more biblically correct interpretation of the atonement.

Dad Ernie said that the term "payment" was metaphorical and went on to show some verses dealing with propitiation. He also gave the definition of the term and went on to show the similarities between the OT sin offerings and what Christ did on the cross. Dad answered the above questions with the following:

1 & 2 - When we stand before the Bema Judgment Seat 100% of the sins committed in this life will have been forgiven. The "Great White Throne Judgment" is something else again.

3 - The believer is given a white robe which stands for the righteousness of Christ.

hmmm...I can't go on like this...let me simplify this alittle more....

The basic tone of this thread is trying to find out if the Penal Theory of Atonement is the more accurate theory out there. It is the belief of some that have posted that this theory leads to Universalism, and it is the beleif that the Penal theory is the accurate way to look at the atonement.

It is my belief that this thread is intended to try and tear down the doctrine of eternal security through the side door of the atonement. But I am probably wrong with this thought so I intend to give as much information as I have as unbiasly as I can give it. At the end, I hope to still be welcome on this board and not labeled as a heretic for defending eternal security. As of now, I honestly don't care what theory of atonement there is out there because I know what Christ has done in my life...I know where my salvation/sanctification/glorification/justification/atonement/and ultimitly, my eternal resting place will be......

In glory with my Father God and my Lord Jesus Christ! AMEN

~your servant in Christ

*p.s. I hope this was a fair run down on the current standing of this thread. If not, I trust someone will come behind me and straighten things out.

~Peace

[The Journey]

Thanks for all of your posts, everybody!

I have some more questions for those that accept the penal (or payment) theory.

1.  How many sins did the payment cover? 

2.  Was it 100% of sins for everybody to ever live? 

3.  How is this payment applied to the believer?

Just trying to understand and get the fullness of the truth.

E4S,

It would be a problem for you if Jesus paid for our sins. That would imply that I would be justified completely. His righteousness imputed to me a creature so depraved if God didn't reach down to me I could never reach up to him. In terms of my eternal salvation I would have righteousness just as if I had never sinned. Just think God choosing a wicked little beast like me from all time, sending His son to pay for my sins, and then giving me the gift of faith to secure that payment. Makes losing my salvation pretty hard.

I guess if I believed I have to work to stay saved I had better believe that I must work to get saved. Thus, my sins are never really paid for.

Ultimately there are only two camps: those that belive we work to secure our salvation and thus can lose it. And those who believe that God chooses, provides and secures our salvation.

And that as Paul Harvey would say...is the rest of the story...

- Steve

[endure4salvation]

1 John 2:2

...and [Jesus] is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Sagz, I have a question.

Is there anybody to ever live in the history of mankind whose sins are not covered by the blood of Jesus?

I hope your answer is NO!

1 Timothy 2:6

[Jesus Christ] gave Himself as a ransom for all...

Sagz, I have another question.

Is there anybody to ever live in the history of mankind whose sins are not covered by the blood of Jesus?

I hope your answer is NO!

Now then, if everybody to ever live has their sins paid for, who will end up in hell?

If it was a literal payment, and unbelief is a mere sin, who will end up in hell?

I hope your answer is NOBODY!

How then can a literal payment be the correct Biblical doctrine, when Revelation 21:8 says:

Revelation 21:8

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all the liars-their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.  This is the second death.

Did you know that there are actually people that will end up in the lake of fire? If the payment theory is true, them please explain to me how faith adds anything to the mix.

If sins were paid for 2,000 years ago, then faith means nothing, because your sins were forgiven 2,000 years ago.

Do you follow me yet?

[endure4salvation]

Mrs Mac's quote is absolutely correct.

Although may I just add this one thing; as Christ was forsaken by the Father spiritualy for a time because of our sin..if He (Christ) had not endured that for us, we would have been forsaken forever and condemned to hell..

At what time did Jesus cease to be God?

Either Jesus is God in the flesh, or He is not.

If Jesus is not God, then all Christians are going to hell because we are worshiping a mere human (idolatry) and not the true living God that created the universe.

Jesus is fully God in the flesh. He has always been God and will always be God.

God did NOT forsake Himself--He wouldn't be God.

[sagz4Christ]

1 John 2:2

...and [Jesus] is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Sagz, I have a question.

Is there anybody to ever live in the history of mankind whose sins are not covered by the blood of Jesus?

I hope your answer is NO!

1 Timothy 2:6

[Jesus Christ] gave Himself as a ransom for all...

Sagz, I have another question.

Is there anybody to ever live in the history of mankind whose sins are not covered by the blood of Jesus?

I hope your answer is NO!

Now then, if everybody to ever live has their sins paid for, who will end up in hell?

If it was a literal payment, and unbelief is a mere sin, who will end up in hell?

I hope your answer is NOBODY!

How then can a literal payment be the correct Biblical doctrine, when Revelation 21:8 says:

Revelation 21:8

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all the liars-their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

[Faith1]

1 John 2:2

...and [Jesus] is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Sagz, I have a question.

Is there anybody to ever live in the history of mankind whose sins are not covered by the blood of Jesus?

I hope your answer is NO!

1 Timothy 2:6

[Jesus Christ] gave Himself as a ransom for all...

Sagz, I have another question.

Is there anybody to ever live in the history of mankind whose sins are not covered by the blood of Jesus?

I hope your answer is NO!

Now then, if everybody to ever live has their sins paid for, who will end up in hell?

If it was a literal payment, and unbelief is a mere sin, who will end up in hell?

I hope your answer is NOBODY!

How then can a literal payment be the correct Biblical doctrine, when Revelation 21:8 says:

Revelation 21:8

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all the liars-their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

[Faith1]

Will read your outine post to me Sagz and get back on board later Brother but does look interesting

In Him

Faith1

[Mrs Mac]

If you look in again, Im4him...."Thanks"

From my understanding, the Penal Payment theory is a name given to the doctrine developed by John Calvin to support his doctrines that later became known as Calvinism.

No wonder I'm feeling uncomfortable on this thread. I am a Christian not a Calvinist.

endure......

At what time did Jesus cease to be God?

Jesus did not die as God. God became man so that man could die. Man had to atone for sin not God. A perfect man had to die for imperfect men to bring imperfect men into right relationship with God.

I can't comment anymore on the "penal payment" because I am too simple minded for such higher learning.

Ethlyn