Why a Trinity?

[Fiosh]

Not wanting to hi-jack the thread but after reading some posts I can't help but make an observation. A lot of posters that I recall openly opposing the work of God through the sacraments because it is not logical and somewhat irrational are willing to embrace the Trinity even though acknowledging it can't be reasoned out nor understood by men. Perhaps there is hope yet!

SW

SW, in the spirit of love and gentleness, I have to say that when I decided to become an apologetic of Trinity, I needed to renounce my Catholic faith. The doctrine of Trinity upholds One God in three Persons, not four or more (as how Catholics would view it).

In the agape love of Christ,

germanJoy

Wow! Where'd you get that idea?

The RCC professes 3 Persons in one God.

Out of respect for the OP, I won't argue it here, Wayne. I'll PM germanjoy with the Catechism reference that will set him/her straight on Catholic teaching.

[other one]

some food for thought:

QUOTE

Exod 24 10Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet (15) there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.

QUOTE

John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, ' AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.

Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from Him.

So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of, is not what that the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament.

Looking further:

QUOTE

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life and the life was the light of men.

QUOTE

John 1:9 There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world and the world was made through Him and the world did not know Him.

John 8:57-59

57 The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

NASB

It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament days. Jesus in this form was with the Father from the beginning.

It seems to me that the people of the old testament days were not aware of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he existed in before he became flesh.

Further:

QUOTE

Philippians 2:5+ Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with god a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the old testament times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the Father on earth.

Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the fleshly body.

QUOTE

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me;

QUOTE

John 17:20 Jesus prayed " I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their work: that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me"

It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the Father as the Father knows us. Thus we now can do the work of the Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit

QUOTE

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also come the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put al His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection, it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection, to Him. And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, That God may be all in all.

Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him........ The Father.

I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over all and giving it to the Father.

1 Cor 8:5-6

5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

NASB

[st. Worm]

At your request, have PM'ed you Mark777.

sw

[germanJoy]

Not wanting to hi-jack the thread but after reading some posts I can't help but make an observation. A lot of posters that I recall openly opposing the work of God through the sacraments because it is not logical and somewhat irrational are willing to embrace the Trinity even though acknowledging it can't be reasoned out nor understood by men. Perhaps there is hope yet!

SW

SW, in the spirit of love and gentleness, I have to say that when I decided to become an apologetic of Trinity, I needed to renounce my Catholic faith. The doctrine of Trinity upholds One God in three Persons, not four or more (as how Catholics would view it).

In the agape love of Christ,

germanJoy

Wow! Where'd you get that idea?

The RCC professes 3 Persons in one God.

Out of respect for the OP, I won't argue it here, Wayne. I'll PM germanjoy with the Catechism reference that will set him/her straight on Catholic teaching.

Thanks but no need, Fiosh. I taught Catechism and I was really very good at it!

germanJoy

[Fiosh]

Hi other one,

Interesting post!

I have a few comments and questions for you. If you say that the Israelites "saw God", and by this Exodus 24 refers to Jesus---then you state that Jesus is God. You also agree that "the Father" is God. If so, how can you then contend that Jesus and the Father are not equal? God = God. No? If God does not equal God, that implies there are 2 Gods.

How do you reconcile this?

Having said that, I do understand the Bible to say that Jesus laid aside His divinity in the Incarnation:

"Christ Jesus, Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.

Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance,

he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross. " Philippians 2: 5-8

However, this does not imply that Jesus is in any way less than the Father. He freely chose to do the will of the Father.

If you think about it, since God is one, their will is one.

Still, it gets a little confusing to me when I try to understand how Jesus' manhood impacts on His relationship with the Father. In His humaness, Jesus is tempted, he struggles with fear, he feels abandoned by God.

And, in His manhood, He is submitted to the Father.

The Mercedarian Fourth Vow offers the best explanation I've heard of this concept:

"On earth, the Son is obedient to the Father in the Spirit, even to His death on the Cross. This is the intelligible form of His eternal attitude to the Father who begets Him, namely, that of primal obedience in willing cooperation and gratitude....it must be said that this "kenosis of obedience" (Emptying Himself of the form of God, Phil 2:7) must be based on the Eternal Kenosis of the Divine Persons one to another; it must be one of the infinite aspects of eternal life."

The 3 Persons of the Trinity are equal in power and majesty. They are all worthy of equal glory, praise and honor.

One will is not above the rest; they are freely submitted one to the other. The picture of what Scripture demands of us. Ephesians 5:21 "Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ."

A Christian cannot profess that the "Son is not equal to the Father". In doing so you claim that the Son is not God.

In Love,

Fiosh

[other one]

Fiosh, the equal part is the only thing that I disagree with concerning the way the "Trinity" is explained. I just don't believe that they are all equal. Some instances..... you can blaspheme the Father and the Son and be forgiven..... not so with the spirit. The Father and only the Father knows when Jesus will return. Just a couple of instances where they are not equal.

Also Jesus was given all authority by the Father, He did not already have it, and when he has made all His enemies his footstool, He will be subject to the Father again. Jesus is and always was Deity, even when he was in His Fleshly form is was much more than just a man. I think I will just use the verses in Paul's first letter to the Corinthians to keep things strait for me and I'll ask Him about it when He gets back.

1 Cor 8:5-6

5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

NASB

About Jesus being or not being God, I can't answer for the word to most Christians means the Trinity..... In Greek the word "theos" does not mean the same as it does to Trinitarian Christians. As Paul's letter states there are many gods (theos), but for us there is only one God....... The Father..... There is only one Lord.... Jesus the Christ.... I have decided to leave it at that until He returns. Somehow I don't think he will mind as long as I really gave myself over to Him and He is truly my Lord. He has total control over my eternal destiny so to the Greeks at the time of Paul, he would be my God. He through the Spirit is my only way to the Father.....

I look at it this way...... I now have access to the Father through the Spirit by what Jesus has done and continues to do. On judgement day the Father has already stated what my fate will be unless Jesus proclaims to the Father that I am His...... That is my only hope.

.

[Fiosh]

Fiosh, the equal part is the only thing that I disagree with concerning the way the "Trinity" is explained. I just don't believe that they are all equal. Some instances..... you can blaspheme the Father and the Son and be forgiven..... not so with the spirit. The Father and only the Father knows when Jesus will return. Just a couple of instances where they are not equal.

Also Jesus was given all authority by the Father, He did not already have it, and when he has made all His enemies his footstool, He will be subject to the Father again. Jesus is and always was Deity, even when he was in His Fleshly form is was much more than just a man. I think I will just use the verses in Paul's first letter to the Corinthians to keep things strait for me and I'll ask Him about it when He gets back.

1 Cor 8:5-6

5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

NASB

About Jesus being or not being God, I can't answer for the word to most Christians means the Trinity..... In Greek the word "theos" does not mean the same as it does to Trinitarian Christians. As Paul's letter states there are many gods (theos), but for us there is only one God....... The Father..... There is only one Lord.... Jesus the Christ.... I have decided to leave it at that until He returns. Somehow I don't think he will mind as long as I really gave myself over to Him and He is truly my Lord. He has total control over my eternal destiny so to the Greeks at the time of Paul, he would be my God. He through the Spirit is my only way to the Father.....

I look at it this way...... I now have access to the Father through the Spirit by what Jesus has done and continues to do. On judgement day the Father has already stated what my fate will be unless Jesus proclaims to the Father that I am His...... That is my only hope.

.

Hi other one,

I appreciate your frankness, and if you do not want to discuss this further I'll respect that. I don't profess to perfectly understand the Trinity---which in my church we refer to as "a mystery of faith".

I do know that there is one God in three Persons: the Father is God; the Son is God; the Holy Spirit is God.

I know that God cannot be greater or lesser than God. Therefore the 3 Persons in one God must be equal to one another.

This is not to say that they have the same role.

Let me leave you with this passage to ponder:

John 20: 27 - 28

Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here and see my hands, and bring your hand and put it into my side, and do not be unbelieving, but believe."

Thomas answered and said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

'Nite,

Fiosh

[other one]

Quote Fiosh: A Christian cannot profess that the "Son is not equal to the Father". In doing so you claim that the Son is not God

Making this statement would mean that belief in the Trinity is part of salvation and I would disagree with this.

QUOTE

Philippians 2:5+ Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with god a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus existed in the form of God..... that is an interesting way of saying that Jesus is God.

Jesus did not regard equality a thing to be grasped. If he was equal that is a very awkward way of saying so. To me it seems to be saying that he did not think it a good thing to attain equality with the Father..... but that is just the way I read it..

Because he was obedient to death on the cross God (The Father) exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name and that we should bow the knee to Him..... this is something that the Father bestowed on Him, and in the act of bowing the knee to Him and confessing that Jesus is Lord is actually to the glory of the Father.

I just don't see the equality here. It is these and a few other verses that confused me about the teachings of the Trinity for many years. Once I dropped the equality part it all makes sense to me. Actually the entire Gospel makes more sense to me once I made that transition.

I am not trying to say that Jesus is just a man, or anything like that. Jesus was and is deity from the very begining before there was time. He has always been with the Father, and is the Father's interface with the time-space universe that we exist in.

I can not sit back and tell you or anyone that you must agree or not, just letting you know what I myself believe and giving you something to think about.

[Smalcald]

Smalcald quote:

As far as God's goodness it is not His goodness that is in question, it is our evil natures and almost continual rebellion against God that is the problem. Did Christ die in vain? Do we now denigrate His sacrifice by simply saying, "I'm okay your okay"? God has given us every chance, and indeed those stories we worry about; the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the coming wrath of God when the world ends, are there not to show God's horrible nature, but to show us what we have done to this earth, yet even after all of that we have a Savior who will protect those who call on Him and love Him, a Savior who died for us each individually.

Saintworm:

That's right. The question is not why God allows hardship and difficulty. The real question is why He saves anyone at all. People who don't believe God causes or allows pain and difficulty in the world would most likely have walked by the Crucifixion thinking that God had nothing to do with it. Its the highest degree of faith to trust in a God who saves so few while allowing even more to perish in their sins.

However Smalcald, I don't know if I agree that the world is more barbaric today than in the past. We get exposed to much more now due to the fact the world is so connected with media but the world has been an ugly place since the Fall. When Christians were used as human torches in the gardens of the Roman emperor its hard to say things weren't pretty harsh back then.

True, but they knew they were barbaric, it was Barbary with a purpose. Most likely you are correct though we are no worse, but we are not better either. The thing we should point out though is the error of thinking that human beings are improving ourselves over time through our own efforts. That somehow scientific or cultural progress has anything to do with moral progress, as it does not. Indeed the more technologically advanced we become, the more advanced we become in how to kill our neighbor

[emeraldgirl]

Hi, everyone, again, sorry I was away this weekend. Now the thread has gotten away from me. But, I thought I'd answer this one question:

Now, that all being said, EG, Let me ask you - How do you go about determining what it is that you accept in the Bible? What is your process?

I suppose if I had not been taught to believe that Jesus is "the Only Way" since birth, I probably would have disregarded it all by now. I couldn't throw out the Jesus doctrine any sooner than I could expatriate from America; it's so totally integrated into me that it *IS* me.

Except for the Jesus doctrine, it doesn't really matter what you believe about the Bible.

I believe if there is a way of salvation, it must be equally accessible to all people, in all times and in all circumstances. A written Word of God doesn't allow for that.

There isn't any more reason to believe that the men who wrote the Bible and cannonized it and translated it were being overseen by God than there is to believe that an angel provided the Koran in completion, Joe Smith was given the Book of Mormon supernaturally, etc. I always did think it was strange that Christians scoff at those miraculous revelations, but not their own.

If God wanted a written Word, it would unify people, not divide them. It would clarify things, not make them more confusing. Suppose God really did author the 10 Commandments - the whole Bible should be this simple. The Sabbath is the only one people really seem to debate about, and why do they debate it at all? Because Jesus said things later regarding the Sabbath that they argue over. Paul said "all days are equal" (something like that), and so people now have to debate the 4th Commandment.

Even if you look at the Epistels - why should these be Holy Scripture? They're letters to planted churches. Some parts are specific to a a few people in a given congregation! Did God really mean for people to know about these few people forever? Or was it just a letter that Paul wrote to his church, with no notion whatsoever that anyone would ever cannonize it into scripture?

Also, the scripture goes that the Word of God is living, active and sharper than a two-edged sword, right? People say they were reading a scripture and *BAM!* an epiphany! they suddenly gained clarity on some aspect of their lives; it was like they never even read that verse before. Hey, this has happened to me, too! But all great literature gets its moments like that, even written by mortal humans with no aim at holy scripture. I got one of those life-changing moments reading Stephen Covey's awesome The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People when I was a young adult. And many books before then and since.

I will say that I haven't gone on a systematic attempt to prove that the Bible is not the Word of God. I don't need to or want to. I know there are some prophecies and things that may be compelling, if I read them in completion. But the little bit of looking I did just at Messianic prophicies once was a total let-down; very few were even a little compelling. So, if someone can give me three really compelling world-history-type prophecies, it would be nice to do some study on it, but I'm kind of past the point of chasing vague scriptures right now.

Well, that got on longer than I meant.