Is there a difference?

[RND]

My responces in BOLD

I don't recall anyone saying that ten commandments are done away with. They are the moral cornerstone for the Christian life.

If the commandments had come from another source, there would be no outcry against them in the schoolrooms. The problem with the ten commandments in the secular world, stems from their hatred of God, and thus a hatred of anything associated with Him, in this case, His commandments. The world cannot point to anything undesirable about the commandments, except that the ten commandments require an acknowledgement of God.

Good points, and well taken and even moreso understood.

However, I think you'll find a different answer to your inquiry once you ask Christians about keeping the Sabbath, the 4th Commandment. Many Christians will indeed tell you that, in this case, "The Law" has been nailed to the cross. All the while being completely in the dark about that Sabbath, and following the commandments and tradition of men and especially the little horn power.

I think that's why it is vital Christians understand there are two distinct and separate laws. One is indeed still in effect, the other was indeed "nailed to the cross."

Neither the Ten Commandments NOR the rest rest of the Torah were "nailed to the cross. This is not what Paul taught. Here is what Paul said:

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

(Colossians 2:13-14)

I agree with you here. Yet many, if not most Christians will tell you the 10 Commandments Law was indeed "nailed to the cross' which, as I see you know, wasn't.

In Paul's day, crucifixion was a common practice and Paul is drawing on tha imagery. When someone was crucified, the Romans would also afix to the cross a list of offenses that this crucified person had committed to warrant such a brutal punishment.

It was our sin was nailed to Jesus' cross. (Represented by the ceremonial law and the traditions of men) The Law was not sinful and is the product of God's mind and heart. (Well said) There is no reason to nail it to the cross. (Yet many Christians do it all the time, insisting instead that we are merely saved by grace.) The Law was not problem. It was our offenses that Jesus was dying for, and therefore it was OUR offenses that were nailed to His cross. Our sin was imputed to Him and He died in our place. Now His righteousness is imputed to us. (Indeed!)

There are not "two laws," and the Bible does not say there are two Laws. (Yes there are and yes it does!) The Bible treats ALL 613 (including the 10 commandments) as the Law. (No it doesn't! The tablets were kept inside the Ark, the Book was kept on the outside!) It never makes a distinction. You are making what amounts to a superficial distinction between the 10 commandments and rest of the Torah. (Hardly, I didn't write the Penetauch. God's moral law still stands and as a matter of fact was in place prior to the COI's escape from Egypt.) That is simply your doctrine, not the Bible's. (I would say you are mistaken in this)

1Ki 8:9 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

Heb 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant

As for the Sabbath, we have been all over it on this board about the Sabbath. No one on this board is "anti-Sabbath." We have Messianic Jews on this board who are Sabbath observant, and I for one have defended Sabbath observance and the rights of Christians to keep the biblical Sabbath if they so choose. (Great! Outstanding, for if you haven't guessed by now, I am a Sabbath keeping Christian. Remember the Sabbath was made for man, not for Jew only)

What we disagree with on THIS board is that Sabbath observance is compulsory, (Are the 10 commandments dead? No longer in effect?) and that it is in any way, linked to Salvation. We have had others come to us with a back door approach, and suggest that not keeping the Sabbath is a sin, (Isn't sin the transgression of the law?) and that true followers of Jesus should keep the Sabbath (implying that not keeping the Sabbath calls into question if one is really following Jesus). (I believe many non-Sabbath keeping Christians will be saved and vice-a-versa) That is something that will not be tolerated on this board. (I sorry, but you can check each and every one of my posts and you won't see that I have ever made such a claim, nor will I make such a claim.) We do not disparage Sabbath-keeping, but we will not tolerate anyone coming on this board and saying that Sabbath observance is mandatory in this dispensation for the New Testament Christian. (Are you saying that 9 of the 10 Commandments are still in effect then? Or is the entire 10 commandments still in effect? Are you aware of the who, what, when, where and how's of the solemnity of the Sabbath changing and the observance of times and laws not authorized by the Bible? I come from this point of view. I do not condemn anyone, nor do I shrink from and honest and open discussion from the truth. As a true believer in God and Jesus Christ you should honestly feel the same.)

God Bless.

[Guest shiloh357]

My responces in BOLD

I don't recall anyone saying that ten commandments are done away with. They are the moral cornerstone for the Christian life.

If the commandments had come from another source, there would be no outcry against them in the schoolrooms. The problem with the ten commandments in the secular world, stems from their hatred of God, and thus a hatred of anything associated with Him, in this case, His commandments. The world cannot point to anything undesirable about the commandments, except that the ten commandments require an acknowledgement of God.

Good points, and well taken and even moreso understood.

However, I think you'll find a different answer to your inquiry once you ask Christians about keeping the Sabbath, the 4th Commandment. Many Christians will indeed tell you that, in this case, "The Law" has been nailed to the cross. All the while being completely in the dark about that Sabbath, and following the commandments and tradition of men and especially the little horn power.

I think that's why it is vital Christians understand there are two distinct and separate laws. One is indeed still in effect, the other was indeed "nailed to the cross."

Neither the Ten Commandments NOR the rest rest of the Torah were "nailed to the cross. This is not what Paul taught. Here is what Paul said:

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

(Colossians 2:13-14)

I agree with you here. Yet many, if not most Christians will tell you the 10 Commandments Law was indeed "nailed to the cross' which, as I see you know, wasn't.

In Paul's day, crucifixion was a common practice and Paul is drawing on tha imagery. When someone was crucified, the Romans would also afix to the cross a list of offenses that this crucified person had committed to warrant such a brutal punishment.

It was our sin was nailed to Jesus' cross. (Represented by the ceremonial law and the traditions of men) The Law was not sinful and is the product of God's mind and heart. (Well said) There is no reason to nail it to the cross. (Yet many Christians do it all the time, insisting instead that we are merely saved by grace.) The Law was not problem. It was our offenses that Jesus was dying for, and therefore it was OUR offenses that were nailed to His cross. Our sin was imputed to Him and He died in our place. Now His righteousness is imputed to us. (Indeed!)

There are not "two laws," and the Bible does not say there are two Laws. (Yes there are and yes it does!) The Bible treats ALL 613 (including the 10 commandments) as the Law. (No it doesn't! The tablets were kept inside the Ark, the Book was kept on the outside!) It never makes a distinction. You are making what amounts to a superficial distinction between the 10 commandments and rest of the Torah. (Hardly, I didn't write the Penetauch. God's moral law still stands and as a matter of fact was in place prior to the COI's escape from Egypt.) That is simply your doctrine, not the Bible's. (I would say you are mistaken in this)

1Ki 8:9 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

Heb 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant

As for the Sabbath, we have been all over it on this board about the Sabbath. No one on this board is "anti-Sabbath." We have Messianic Jews on this board who are Sabbath observant, and I for one have defended Sabbath observance and the rights of Christians to keep the biblical Sabbath if they so choose. (Great! Outstanding, for if you haven't guessed by now, I am a Sabbath keeping Christian. Remember the Sabbath was made for man, not for Jew only)

What we disagree with on THIS board is that Sabbath observance is compulsory, (Are the 10 commandments dead? No longer in effect?) and that it is in any way, linked to Salvation. We have had others come to us with a back door approach, and suggest that not keeping the Sabbath is a sin, (Isn't sin the transgression of the law?) and that true followers of Jesus should keep the Sabbath (implying that not keeping the Sabbath calls into question if one is really following Jesus). (I believe many non-Sabbath keeping Christians will be saved and vice-a-versa) That is something that will not be tolerated on this board. (I sorry, but you can check each and every one of my posts and you won't see that I have ever made such a claim, nor will I make such a claim.) We do not disparage Sabbath-keeping, but we will not tolerate anyone coming on this board and saying that Sabbath observance is mandatory in this dispensation for the New Testament Christian. (Are you saying that 9 of the 10 Commandments are still in effect then? Or is the entire 10 commandments still in effect? Are you aware of the who, what, when, where and how's of the solemnity of the Sabbath changing and the observance of times and laws not authorized by the Bible? I come from this point of view. I do not condemn anyone, nor do I shrink from and honest and open discussion from the truth. As a true believer in God and Jesus Christ you should honestly feel the same.)

God Bless.

I am not going to argue with you, RND. Just know that this board does not support Adventist teachings, and compulsory Sabbath observance types of teachings will NOT be tolerated. Other than that, you are free to be as pro Sabbath as you wish.

[wordsower]

I'm wary of anyone that insists on argueing a particular doctrine. The Pentecostal focus on the tongues, the Catholics on Mary, the SDA's on the Sabbath.

We are called to focus on Jesus, He fulfilled the law.

[RND]

I'm wary of anyone that insists on argueing a particular doctrine. The Pentecostal focus on the tongues, the Catholics on Mary, the SDA's on the Sabbath.

We are called to focus on Jesus, He fulfilled the law.

Was it a crime to commit murder prior to the Cruxifiction? How about afterward?

What about stealing? Or adultery? Or bearing false witness? How about idol worship?

The law is a mirror in which we can see our sins. It does not heal, nor does it clean.

Only the precious blood of Jesus Christ heals and cleans.

The law is still there, it hasn't changed, nor has it been nailed to the cross.

[Guest shiloh357]

I'm wary of anyone that insists on argueing a particular doctrine. The Pentecostal focus on the tongues, the Catholics on Mary, the SDA's on the Sabbath.

We are called to focus on Jesus, He fulfilled the law.

Was it a crime to commit murder prior to the Cruxifiction? How about afterward?

What about stealing? Or adultery? Or bearing false witness? How about idol worship?

The law is a mirror in which we can see our sins. It does not heal, nor does it clean.

Only the precious blood of Jesus Christ heals and cleans.

The law is still there, it hasn't changed, nor has it been nailed to the cross.

nor is every aspect of it mandatory for this dispensation. Sabbath obervance, especially.

[RND]

I am not going to argue with you, RND. Just know that this board does not support Adventist teachings, and compulsory Sabbath observance types of teachings will NOT be tolerated. Other than that, you are free to be as pro Sabbath as you wish.

An old legal maxim says "He who leaves the battlefield first, loses"

Just so you know I don't support "your" teachings either.

I do not preach a complusory Sabbath observance message. Never had, never will. But without a doubt it is the best way to know how one has been deceived from years a false paganistic teaching. I should know, I used to falsely believe the same things most Christians do. Soul goes to Heaven...secret rapture...prophetic Israel.

It was only when I prayed for wisdom and knowledge and that only did the Lord feel it right to show me the Truth.

You know, most Christians cannot honestly answer the question: Why do you worship on Sunday?

And because they can't, they will never know they've been deceived and when the true anti-christ comes for them.

[Guest shiloh357]

I am not going to argue with you, RND. Just know that this board does not support Adventist teachings, and compulsory Sabbath observance types of teachings will NOT be tolerated. Other than that, you are free to be as pro Sabbath as you wish.

An old legal maxim says "He who leaves the battlefield first, loses"

Just so you know I don't support "your" teachings either.

I do not preach a complusory Sabbath observance message. Never had, never will. But without a doubt it is the best way to know how one has been deceived from years a false paganistic teaching. I should know, I used to falsely believe the same things most Christians do. Soul goes to Heaven...secret rapture...prophetic Israel.

It was only when I prayed for wisdom and knowledge and that only did the Lord feel it right to show me the Truth.

You know, most Christians cannot honestly answer the question: Why do you worship on Sunday?

And because they can't, they will never know they've been deceived and when the true anti-christ comes for them.

This is not a battlefield, RND. I have been here long enough, and we have had other SDAs come to this board with same approach you use here. They sow a little seed here and there and look innocent enough, and sooner or later the other shoe drops and those who don't keep the Sabbath are in rebellion against God and only true followers of Jesus keep the true the Sabbath and all that rot. We have had more than one come on this board and deny that they were up to anything at all. Yet they eventually proved otherwise. Maybe you are different, I don't know. Historically, I just keep seeing the same pattern develop.

Why do most Christians worship on Sunday? Because they choose to. You choose to worship on a different day. The difference is that I am not going to lose any sleep over what day you choose to worship, and I certainly am not going to jump on an SDA messageboard and try to sway you, and tell you that you are wrong for worshipping on that day.

Do what you want... Just dont think that you are going to sneek over here and plant seeds of doubt in the hearts of sincere belivers on THIS board.

[nebula]

Why were the 10 Commandments placed in the ark?

Well, it is necessary to understand that the Ark of the Covenant was a type of Christ and it is upon the mercy seat that the blood was sprinkled every Yom Kippur. There were three things in the Ark. The Ten Commandments, the Rod of Aaron which budded in the presence of God and the golden pot of manna.

Each of these things were placed in the Ark, thus "in Christ." The Ten Commandments represent the Torah fulfilled in Christ, the budding rod of Aaron represented the flourishing of the Kingdom of God in Christ, and the golden pot of manna, God's provision in wilderness, and the full provision of our salvation, in Christ, who is the "Bread from Heaven." The Ark of the Covenant, its contents, and the blood upon the Ark, teach that God has nothing to say to man apart from Jesus and His blood.

Neato burrito!

Thanks, Shiloh!

[RND]

Why do most Christians worship on Sunday? Because they choose to.

Could it simply be that they don't know any better because they haven't been taught properly? Is that possible? Is it possible that there churches and pastors have falsely told them they done have to worship on the Sabbath? Or is it really just as simple as choice?

When I use to worship on Sunday's I can assure you it wasn't by choice. I didn't know any better. And I can assure you further that no one volunteered any information...

Here's some though:

Most Christians assume that Sunday is the biblically approved day of worship. The Roman Catholic Church protests that it transferred Christian worship from the biblical Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday, and that to try to argue that the change was made in the Bible is both dishonest and a denial of Catholic authority. If Protestantism wants to base its teachings only on the Bible, it should worship on Saturday.

Over one hundred years ago the Catholic Mirror ran a series of articles discussing the right of the Protestant churches to worship on Sunday. The articles stressed that unless one was willing to accept the authority of the Catholic Church to designate the day of worship, the Christian should observe Saturday. Those articles are presented here in their entirety.

For more information go here (simply copy and paste in your address bar):

www.aloha.net/~mikesch/chalng.htm

The Mod won't allow a link cause it doesn't jibe with thier theology. How's that for choice and confidence in what you believe?

I will gladly and at any time place my theology against anyone else's. Sola scriptura.

Edited July 14, 2006 by RND

[Guest shiloh357]

Why do most Christians worship on Sunday? Because they choose to.

Could it simply be that they don't know any better because they haven't been taught properly? Is that possible? Is it possible that there churches and pastors have falsely told them they done have to worship on the Sabbath? Or is it really just as simple as choice?

When I use to worship on Sunday's I can assure you it wasn't by choice. I didn't know any better. And I can assure you further that no one volunteered any information...

Here's some though:

Most Christians assume that Sunday is the biblically approved day of worship. The Roman Catholic Church protests that it transferred Christian worship from the biblical Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday, and that to try to argue that the change was made in the Bible is both dishonest and a denial of Catholic authority. If Protestantism wants to base its teachings only on the Bible, it should worship on Saturday.

Over one hundred years ago the Catholic Mirror ran a series of articles discussing the right of the Protestant churches to worship on Sunday. The articles stressed that unless one was willing to accept the authority of the Catholic Church to designate the day of worship, the Christian should observe Saturday. Those articles are presented here in their entirety.

For more information go here (simply copy and paste in your address bar):

www.aloha.net/~mikesch/chalng.htm

The Mod won't allow a link cause it doesn't jibe with thier theology. How's that for choice and confidence in what you believe?

I will gladly and at any time place my theology against anyone else's. Sola scriptura.

I think you take for granted what "most Christians" do or don't know. I for one will not insult their intelligence.

There is another fallacy in your remarks above. EVERYDAY (not just the Sabbath) is a day of worship. The Sabbath was a day of rest and it was given to the Children of Israel and was mandatory for that particular dispensation. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with a Christian keeping the Sabbath or the dietary laws if they choose to.

I also note that you see the Sabbath as Sola Scriptura issue. It is not. Sola Scriptura does not speak to the Sabbath issue. Sola Scriptura simply means that the Bible alone is the final arbitor in spiritual matters. It means that we do seek any other source outside the Bible as a guide in matters pertaining to God and the Christian faith.

Sola Scriptura does not mean,"You have to believe the same as I do."